Obama 6(...66)

[rufus]

Re: Obama 6(...66)

3-4 years? We're well on our way to that already. How is the stimulus going to stop this? Long term it will create an even more awful overhang on the American economy, as it spurs inflation, undermines the dollar, and saps more and more federal spending to fund deficit interest payments. But, hey, as long as we pump the economy this year, who cares about future generations, eh?

It's not supposed to stop it. The time to stop it would have been when George Bush got elected to his second term, but you didn't seem to give too much of a crap about the economy and its fundamentals then. Just go shopping, and buy your own home, everything's grand.

What it's meant to do is lessen and shorten the bad effects, and get the economy back on track and producing as soon as possible. Estimates say we've lost a trillion dollars of economic output due to this. That's a trillion dollars that could have been taxed, used to start businesses and hire people, used to pay down debt. All gone. You want to lose another trillion next year? The year after that?

The longer it takes to get the economy going again, the longer it takes to recover that lost trillion and then grow even more. You think things are bad now, they could be a lot worse. And don't tell me they might get there, because 'there' would be even worse then. That's why many people have said the stimulus wasn't enough, it needed to be bigger.

Once you get the economy back on track and growing, you pay off those deficits with the money that increased productivity and growth generate. But you can't do that wallowing in a deep recession/depression for six years.

Jesus, it's like I'm talking to children.

 

[rufus]

Re: Obama 6(...66)

Just because we don't know how much inflation there will be, doesn't mean a logical person would endorse your "stick your head in the sand" approach to the economy.

And again, you post a strawman argument. It's not head in the sand, it's deal with those problems if and when they arise. If we're still in depression 3 or 4 years from now, your incessant bleatings of 'inflation' will be moot. Then you'll be crying 'why didn't the government do more to get us out of this?'

 

[gregg729]

Re: Obama 6(...66)

Did anyone else have to Google "turtle tunnel"? I miss a lot of really vital issues not listening to talk radio.

lol

In my hubris, I actually was thinking I might have coined it. Alas, the term rolls so pleasingly off the tongue that there was no shortage of hits on Google.

Hit #1, by the way, is at the same time an amusing an troubling example of several things: where the liberals stand on spending priorities while looking down the jaws of the worst economic landscape in 6 decades and their willingness to poo poo away all the pork in the bill since it suits their liberal agenda. (And I absolutely disapprove of ANY pork, by the way, so let's not go there. )

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-markarian/florida-turtle-tunnel-pro_b_218084.html

"But when you look under the shell, the Florida highway project dubbed the Lake Jackson Ecopassage, which will help turtles and other animals cross a busy and deadly stretch of U.S. Highway 27 in Tallahassee, is not a fleecing of taxpayers. It's a wise solution to a pressing problem that makes the highway unsafe for drivers and a slaughter ground for wildlife. The community-based project is supported by local citizens, public officials, and the state Department of Transportation. It has been 10 years in the making and now, thanks to federal stimulus money, has the potential to not only help animals, but also save human lives."

I'm sure the hearts of the people in the lines of the Florida unemployment offices bleed for the turtles. Michael, you sir are an idiot.

Oh, I'm well aware of where you stand. You can't be a racist, cause you've got tons of black friends. That's so nice and open-minded of you. You're a true American icon.

Open-minded huh? From the guy who accuses people of racism if they oppose the policies of that clown in the White House? Dope.

And you're Wall Street analogy is apples and oranges. If you want and need a 1% return within the next six months(economic stimulus) and can't wait twenty years for a 20% annual return, then you go with the 1% return.

Where did my analogy ever say anything about a difference in time between one investment and the other?

mmmkay, Rufus, constantly, repeatedly, and deliberatly misquoting others isn't playing very nice, don't you think? I think you should go to the stool in the corner and wear the dunce cap until you have learned your lesson. And leave your Obama doll at the desk, mmmmkay?

That's like being on the Titanic and worried that your lifeboat seat is gonna be cold.

We'll deal with that problem if and when it arises. Not really a good time to be worrying about theoreticals and might happens.

That is quite possibly the worst analogy you could have possibly used. What a frail grasp of reality you have.

And this isn't just theoretical, but a case of our government not learning from the mistakes of the past.

Period. The second paragraph is shockingly ignorant.

 

[rufus]

Re: Obama 6(...66)

Look, jobs

A company that makes light-rail trains in south Sacramento is in the midst of hiring about 200 people and has announced a big new contract with San Diego Metropolitan Transit System.

Siemens will make 57 new, low-floor light rail vehicles over a two-year period for the San Diego system, a contract worth $205.2 million.

Of course, this is just another one of those liberal pet projects that we shouldn't be funding.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama 6(...66)

And there's plenty of things the Fed and others can do to stem the growth of inflation before it becomes the serious problem you're wetting your pants over.

No, there aren't. When an individual consumer overspends, credit consolidators can help him out, or worst case, he has to declare bankruptcy and his creditors have to eat the losses (i.e. spread them out in their prices to other customers). If an individual industry overspends (see, venture capital in the late '90s), then it goes belly up, and a lot of investors take a bath, but they can fall back on their more traditional savings in other assets, again spreading the pain. When the entire financial sector has excesses, there's pretty much only one thing they can fall back on, and that's the federal government, which is what happened last summer.

When the federal government overspends, well, it also has a single resource that it can fall back on - the Federal Reserve, from which it can borrow, it always seems to assume, pretty much whatever it needs. Well, that crap is about to hit the fan. We've been living on borrowing as a normal means of doing business for so long that now when we could actually use a little credit to get through a rough patch, that safety net is pretty well tapped out. Sure, it sucks for Democrats that the Republicans got to run wild on all that "free money" for so many years - but they'd better get over the "it's our turn, now, suckas!" mentality and break the cycle, or we are in for a world of hurt. There is no more safety net. There is no, or very little, time left to spend (I can't bring myself to say "invest" or "stimulate") our way out of debt.

The way to fix this is to convince the American people to pitch in and do 100 little things that improve the US economy rather than hurt it, even if it does cause some minor inconveniences. Get your old TV repaired at a repair shop, keeping that TV repairman in business for one more day, even though it costs the same to buy a brand new imported TV. Buy locally grown food, and walk to the store to do it, which keeps us from importing one more gallon of gas. Make do with less. Save more. If you think those items hurt the quality of life, then you're making the wrong comparison. It's not about the quality of life if we take those steps vs. what was available yesterday. The proper comparison is the quality of life if we DO take those steps vs. what will happen if we DON'T.

[/soapbox]

P.S. And GET OFF MY LAWN!!!

 

[rufus]

Re: Obama 6(...66)

Little greggy, condesencion isn't a flattering attribute on you.

But keep right on with your little elitest attitudes. And say hi to your black friends for me. I've never even seen a black man, you know.

 

[gregg729]

Re: Obama 6(...66)

And again, you post a strawman argument. It's not head in the sand, it's deal with those problems if and when they arise. If we're still in depression 3 or 4 years from now, your incessant bleatings of 'inflation' will be moot. Then you'll be crying 'why didn't the government do more to get us out of this?'

Honestly dude....

You really have no idea what you're talking about. You're dead wrong about something that should be perfectly obvious. I'd salvage whatever credibility you have left and walk away from this particular exchange. That is honestly the best thing for you to do.

Just giving you some frank advice, do with it what you like.

 

[rufus]

Re: Obama 6(...66)

.

The way to fix this is to convince the American people to pitch in and do 100 little things that improve the US economy rather than hurt it, even if it does cause some minor inconveniences. Get your old TV repaired at a repair shop, keeping that TV repairman in business for one more day, even though it costs the same to buy a brand new imported TV. Buy locally grown food, and walk to the store to do it, which keeps us from importing one more gallon of gas. Make do with less. Save more. If you think those items hurt the quality of life, then you're making the wrong comparison. It's not about the quality of life if we take those steps vs. what was available yesterday. The proper comparison is the quality of life if we DO take those steps vs. what will happen if we DON'T.

[/soapbox]

P.S. And GET OFF MY LAWN!!!

Wow, if only you'd been preaching this the last eight years. One might take your arguments more seriously.

 

[rufus]

Re: Obama 6(...66)

Honestly dude....

You really have no idea what you're talking about. You're dead wrong about something that should be perfectly obvious. I'd salvage whatever credibility you have left and walk away from this particular exchange. That is honestly the best thing for you to do.

Just giving you some frank advice, do with it what you like.

Oh, greggy, you're my hero. A man's man.

 

[gregg729]

Re: Obama 6(...66)

And say hi to your black friends for me. I've never even seen a black man, you know.

lol

A rare wrister through the five-hole for rufus. Nice one, I got a good chuckle.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama 6(...66)

Wow, if only you'd been preaching this the last eight years. One might take your arguments more seriously.

I didn't realize that you've been following me around for eight years. If you think I'm wrong because of who's in power today, then you are part of the problem.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama 6(...66)

The way to fix this is to convince the American people to pitch in and do 100 little things that improve the US economy rather than hurt it, even if it does cause some minor inconveniences. Get your old TV repaired at a repair shop, keeping that TV repairman in business for one more day, even though it costs the same to buy a brand new imported TV. Buy locally grown food, and walk to the store to do it, which keeps us from importing one more gallon of gas. Make do with less. Save more. If you think those items hurt the quality of life, then you're making the wrong comparison. It's not about the quality of life if we take those steps vs. what was available yesterday. The proper comparison is the quality of life if we DO take those steps vs. what will happen if we DON'T.

This is a great plan of personal action, regardless of which side of the aisle one is on. But I wonder if paradoxically it wouldn't actually hurt the national economy. Consumerism is in effect the biggest Ponzi Scheme of all, with our jobs and our investments dependent on constantly rising consumption. The smart thing to do personally is to save, get out of debt, and then spend more wisely. But if the entire population does that there may not be enough spending to support our standard of living.

My intuition is you can't keep an anvil aloft forever and it's better to gradually cut back voluntarily than suddenly cut back involuntarily. In the past we'd just have a war to burn up all the infrastructure and create jobs for generations rebuilding it. (This also has the positive effect that you aren't tempted to tweak the existing technology.) What we need is one of those special tribal ceremonies where you pile all your possessions in a heap and light them on fire. Then everybody gets drunk and has sex.

Basically, a national Homecoming Night.

So that's my plan. We recall every American serviceman stationed or TDY on foreign soil and welcome them home with a very special bonfire. Then replace all the crap with 100% American Made.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama 6(...66)

This is a great plan of personal action, regardless of which side of the aisle one is on. But I wonder if paradoxically it wouldn't actually hurt the national economy. Consumerism is in effect the biggest Ponzi Scheme of all, with our jobs and our investments dependent on constantly rising consumption. The smart thing to do personally is to save, get out of debt, and then spend more wisely. But if the entire population does that there may not be enough spending to support our standard of living.

My intuition is you can't keep an anvil aloft forever and it's better to gradually cut back voluntarily than suddenly cut back involuntarily.

You've arrived at the exact same conclusions that I have. I don't see any way that we can continue to support our current standard of living, full stop. Our current standard of living has depended for far too long on 1) cheap, subsidized, no-externals-accounting oil, and 2) an artificial 4-5% injected into the economy each year by deficit spending. Those are both going away. Maybe not today, maybe not even this decade. But what we're experiencing today are merely rumblings that indicate a coming storm, and we're going to be way better off releasing that pressure gradually than waiting for the boiler to explode.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama 6(...66)

You've arrived at the exact same conclusions that I have. I don't see any way that we can continue to support our current standard of living, full stop. Our current standard of living has depended for far too long on 1) cheap, subsidized, no-externals-accounting oil, and 2) an artificial 4-5% injected into the economy each year by deficit spending.

I think it's much simpler than that. As the partitions break down, the waters co-mingle and the temperature evens out. The partitions are economic barriers, the waters are the economy, and the temperature is wages and standard of living (aptly, SOL). We live literally thousands of times better than most of the planet. If our entire economic system, including labor rights and economic protections and all that liberal stuff, was adopted in every corner of the globe this instant, we might get away with shaving only 20 or 30 percent off our SOL before the planet reached equilibrium. But that isn't the way the deal is going down, and every dictatorial holdout or banana republic will pull everybody down towards their lowest common denominator standards.

 

[gregg729]

Re: Obama 6(...66)

No, I just don't know if it will or won't. And neither do you.

Sure, economic models would indicate that it would be. But 'in the real world' that you're so fond of, economic models don't always accurately predict what will happen. And there's plenty of things the Fed and others can do to stem the growth of inflation before it becomes the serious problem you're wetting your pants over.

I'm glad you can ever-so-grudgingly admit after that inflation is a very real concern.

However, it might be wiser to wait a few hours and let the paint dry - then you can just walk out of the corner you got yourself into without making even more of a mess of your argument.

So now your new argument is that we pay no attention to the economic models' forecasts. Brilliant!

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama 6(...66)

That second sentence doesn't even make sense grammatically.

oops.

OK...You worry about inflation. The rest of us will worry about increasing unemployment and the elimination of generations of wealth.

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama 6(...66)

The rest of us will worry about increasing unemployment and the elimination of generations of wealth.

Is this the new Democratic platform?

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama 6(...66)

Is this the new Democratic platform?

Nah, it says nothing about the War on Christmas.

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama 6(...66)

Nah, it says nothing about the War on Christmas.

As long as you leave Santa alone

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama 6(...66)

As long as you leave Santa alone

I dunno. He looks pretty rich. And white.