North Dakota's Team IS THE SIOUX DAMMIT

[scsutommyboy]

Re: North Dakota's Team IS THE SIOUX DAMMIT

UND really needs to stop pussyfooting around here and come out publicly completely against this. Stop relying on the SBoHE, ND AG or anyone else to handle this, do it yourself. Run commercials, buy newspaper ads, do newspaper, television and radio interviews. Explain exactly how and why this is not a good thing. The general public are a bunch of blind, moronic sheep. They believe this is a good thing. UND has to explain why it isn't or they are doomed.

NDSU Bison fans are loving every minute of all this and will vote yes for sure if they get it on the ballot DAMMIT.

 

[Hockeybuckeye]

Re: North Dakota's Team IS THE SIOUX DAMMIT

Exactly how all racist *******s think. Thank you.


No you don't. And even if you did it doesn't excuse your vile comment.

Nothing but facts my friend, are you threatened by the truth? BTW I was intentionally blatant just to prod and see if any bleeding hearts would start crying. I do indeed have indian blood and my wife has as much or more and neither of us believe there is any harm in any school having indian names. We live in the present and are Americans, our ethnic origins are irrelevant.

 

[bigmrg74]

Re: North Dakota's Team IS THE SIOUX DAMMIT

What is this thread doing on Page 3 DAMMIT???

 

[leswp1]

Re: North Dakota's Team IS THE SIOUX DAMMIT

Saying DAMMIT to a lot of things

 

[darker98]

Re: North Dakota's Team IS THE SIOUX DAMMIT

Not looking forward to the 5 yr transition period when we go to D3. DAMMIT!!

 

[Biddco]

Re: North Dakota's Team IS THE SIOUX DAMMIT

Not looking forward to the 5 yr transition period when we go to D3. DAMMIT!!

Just go NAIA DAMMIT

 

[NEWI Badger Fan]

Re: North Dakota's Team IS THE SIOUX DAMMIT

 

[Red Cows]

Re: North Dakota's Team IS THE SIOUX DAMMIT

The hypocrisy and idiocy of this whole name thing is just ridiculous on the part of the NCAA.

Let's see, they want all schools using Indian mascots to change their name(s) or "else".

Oh, but they are O.K. with schools who play in states, cities or towns named after Indians, which are also incorporated into the name? Like, maybe, the University of Nebraska at OMAHA, maybe? Don't even get me started on the word "Nebraska", which is an Oto Indian word (another Sioux tribe). Last time I checked, Omaha is also a Sioux tribe. You don't hear any bellyaching by the NCAA, or, anybody else, for that matter, complaining about use of the name Omaha (tongue firmly implanted in cheek). I am surprised they haven't petitioned the city to change its name.

They are apparently so O.K. with that they have sanctioned an NCAA championship event here for more than 60 years and have committed to having it here another 25 more. I mean, if they really found the use of Indian names all that objectionable, don't you think they would have eschewed Omaha long ago (tongue still firmly implanted in cheek)? How is this any more or less derogatory (provided you guys can the use of the word "Fighting") that what North Dakota is doing, really? I am surprised they haven't taken umbrage to the use of "Dakota". I mean, how far can we take this?

I think my semi-serious point underscores how ludicrous all this really is.

You guys need to tell the NCAA to warm up their lawyers. I'd gladly contribute a few bucks into any legal fund set up by the State of North Dakota to help them draw a line in the sand here. I hate the NCAA and somebody needs to put them in their place.

 

[Beer Pong Horn]

Re: North Dakota's Team IS THE SIOUX DAMMIT

Sigh. Here's your history lesson for the day, everyone:

(1) Mdewakanton or Mdewakantonwan, sometimes Bdewakanton, meaning “Spirit Lake village" referring to Mille Lacs Lake in Minnesota.
(2) Wahpekute - “leafshooters."
(3) Wahpeton - “village in the leaves."
(4) Sisseton or Sisitonwam - "villagers."

These four tribes formed the Dakota or Santee (Isanti) section.

(5) Yankton or Ihanktonwan - “dwellers at the end village."
(6) Yanktonai or Ihanktonwanni -“little dwellers at the end.”

These two tribes formed the Nakota or middle section of the nation.

(7) Teton or "dwellers on the Prairie.” This single tribe were the Lakota or western branch of the nation.

In different dialects, Dakota, Nakota and Lakota all roughly mean "allies."

Earlier in that section of his book, Johnson mentioned that the word "Sioux", now a common descriptor, was an identifier used by the Ojibwe* people to describe the Dakota. From my own reading, the best guess anyone has is that it comes from the word "Nadouessioux", or "snake/rattlesnake in the grass" - an insult by anyone's standards.

Put another way, let's say the entire Gopher fan base started calling UND's teams the "Elevator-peeing, lawnmower-throwing, one-tree, buffalo-shyte, overage Canadian goons." Over the years, it gets shortened to "Canagoons." Then, some guy from out east gets elected to the UND chancellorship and thinks, "Huh, everyone calls them Canagoons, so that must be their name," and formally changes it without asking any of the UND students and alums what they call themselves. Think they might see that as a bit of an imposition?

That said, it seems that most Dakota, Nakota and Lakota are fine with the name "Sioux" by now. In the same way that Native Americans as a whole were tagged with the name "Indian" without their permission, but eventually adopted it as a sign of pride, my (informed) gut feeling is that Dakota people use Sioux as a positive descriptor of themselves. I can't speak to the North Dakota tribes' feelings in that regard though.

Long story short, this is why the NCAA wants to know if the tribes accept the name as a sign of respect, rather than derision. If they do, I don't see what the problem is with "Fighting Sioux."



* Ojibwe is just one name that the Aniishinabe ("The People") have for themselves. Remember the Central Michigan University Chippewas? "Chippewa" is just a mishearing of "Ojibwe/wa" that stuck in white culture, but now the tribes accept the name for their own.

 

[darker98]

Re: North Dakota's Team IS THE SIOUX DAMMIT

North Dakota doesn't have a legal leg to stand on over the nickname. They entered into a legal contract with the NC$$ that had a deadline. We waited until the 11th hour to do anything and it bit us in the Arse. Sure we can stay SIOUX, which I believe is the actual nickname, and suffer sanctions and ruin the athletic department. I love the nickname and support it, but not at the cost of the University. I hate that the school is being drug through this. If the Committee for Respect and Understanding wants to fight this then go to the NC$$ directly. Please do not kill UND athletics and force me to root for the Bison.

 

[Red Cows]

Re: North Dakota's Team IS THE SIOUX DAMMIT

Sigh. Here's your history lesson for the day, everyone:



In different dialects, Dakota, Nakota and Lakota all roughly mean "allies."

Earlier in that section of his book, Johnson mentioned that the word "Sioux", now a common descriptor, was an identifier used by the Ojibwe* people to describe the Dakota. From my own reading, the best guess anyone has is that it comes from the word "Nadouessioux", or "snake/rattlesnake in the grass" - an insult by anyone's standards.

Put another way, let's say the entire Gopher fan base started calling UND's teams the "Elevator-peeing, lawnmower-throwing, one-tree, buffalo-shyte, overage Canadian goons." Over the years, it gets shortened to "Canagoons." Then, some guy from out east gets elected to the UND chancellorship and thinks, "Huh, everyone calls them Canagoons, so that must be their name," and formally changes it without asking any of the UND students and alums what they call themselves. Think they might see that as a bit of an imposition?

That said, it seems that most Dakota, Nakota and Lakota are fine with the name "Sioux" by now. In the same way that Native Americans as a whole were tagged with the name "Indian" without their permission, but eventually adopted it as a sign of pride, my (informed) gut feeling is that Dakota people use Sioux as a positive descriptor of themselves. I can't speak to the North Dakota tribes' feelings in that regard though.

Long story short, this is why the NCAA wants to know if the tribes accept the name as a sign of respect, rather than derision. If they do, I don't see what the problem is with "Fighting Sioux."



* Ojibwe is just one name that the Aniishinabe ("The People") have for themselves. Remember the Central Michigan University Chippewas? "Chippewa" is just a mishearing of "Ojibwe/wa" that stuck in white culture, but now the tribes accept the name for their own.

Except for one thing, and correct me if I am wrong, but, isn't it the NCAA that is squawking about this and not the Indians, themselves? I mean, I don't think various Indian organizations went to the NCAA and said "Hey, put a stop to this!"

That said, I DID attend a Chiefs/Redskins game in Kansas City a decade or so ago where there was a very visible, large Indian protest going on on the stadium grounds, that had been well publicized in advance, I might add. I completely understand why Indians would have a problem with the name "Redskins" and I think the fact that they were playing the Chiefs (which I consider to be a very honorable nickname) was a just a bonus for the "stamp out the Redskins name" crowd.

Perhaps Sioux fan here can enlighten me as to just how much, if any of this is based on complaints by Indians. I know what both tribes said (or didn't say) when they did get asked about it.

What have they had to say before somebody (the NCAA) took it upon themselves to inform them that they were/are being disparaged?

Now, let me say this, too. If I was going to reinvent myself and do something different with my life, I'd become a lawyer and devote myself to Indian social causes because Indians have been, by far, the most maligned, prejudiced, and mistreated peoples in the history of our country. What happened to the black man during that time pales in comparison. We stole their entire civilization and everything about it from them and tried to kill as many of them as we could in that process. Sound anything like what happened during WWII, by the way?

That said, unless the Sioux Indians in North Dakota are jumping up and down hopping mad about this, I don't think this merits NCAA interdiction. They have enough trouble trying to police matters that really need policing.

 

[Beer Pong Horn]

Re: North Dakota's Team IS THE SIOUX DAMMIT

Now, let me say this, too. If I was going to reinvent myself and do something different with my life, I'd become a lawyer and devote myself to Indian social causes because Indians have been, by far, the most maligned, prejudiced, and mistreated peoples in the history of our country. What happened to the black man during that time pales in comparison. We stole their entire civilization and everything about it from them and tried to kill as many of them as we could in that process. Sound anything like what happened during WWII, by the way?

That said, unless the Sioux Indians in North Dakota are jumping up and down hopping mad about this, I don't think this merits NCAA interdiction. They have enough trouble trying to police matters that really need policing.

I don't think I can compare the acts of genocide (according to the United Nations' definition - look it up) towards American Indians post-1600 with the African diaspora from the same time, except to say that both of them were terrible events in American history, and neither is fully resolved.

This whole argument is less about the American Indians of this country asserting their rights, and more about the reactions in the American majority culture. Sometimes that means that well-meaning (white) people try to outlaw any name that could be vaguely insulting, and sometimes that means that frustrated (white) people defiantly cling to names like "Scalper" and "Redskin." As others have said, if the UND system had reached out to the tribal councils sooner and more openly, and maybe even gotten input on possible names rather than "This name: yes or no?" this problem would never have happened.

 

[goldy_331]

Re: North Dakota's Team IS THE SIOUX DAMMIT

Should the manager fell the raw trouser? The nostalgia transforms redskin. The shelter suspects redskin. The satisfied crisis asks another greater leak. Redskin pulls racist on top of a bed. The college cultures the affect underneath the novel theology.

Was that original English or did you use bablefish to translate something?

 

[Terrier520]

Was that original English or did you use bablefish to translate something?

ALTA VISTA DAMMIT!

Or a bad attempt at free-form poetry

 

[Biddco]

Re: North Dakota's Team IS THE SIOUX DAMMIT

BPH wins the thread. Very well stated.

 

[Red Cows]

Re: North Dakota's Team IS THE SIOUX DAMMIT

BPH wins the thread. Very well stated.

Now wait a minute. I didn't realize this was a contest and BPH didn't really address the real issue I asked about.

Whether the black man or the Indian in this country were the most downtrodden people in our country since 1600 is another argument for another day. I certainly don't need a "UN definition" to formulate an opinion one way or another on that topic. The UN certainly is not the arbiter of American history.

I make no claim that this matter is about "the American Indians of this country asserting their rights" at all. In fact, what I was essentially asking was--Is that the case or not here? Are the Sioux Indians in North Dakota up in arms about this? Have they raised this issue? Or, was this, as I suspect, mostly/all NCAA driven?

As an aside, if the State of North Dakota signed a legally binding agreement to change/phase out the name and now wish they hadn't, well, shame on them. IMHO opinion, barring actual Indian objection that they, themselves, raised to using the name, the State should have told the NCAA to go play in the freeway. There are schools looking to ditch the NCAA altogether and this issue could have been a rallying point around making that come to fruition.

 

[SCSU Euro]

Re: North Dakota's Team IS THE SIOUX DAMMIT

Did you just decide that you needed to win this thread after getting upset someone else was declared the winner?

 

[Beer Pong Horn]

Re: North Dakota's Team IS THE SIOUX DAMMIT

Now wait a minute. I didn't realize this was a contest and BPH didn't really address the real issue I asked about.

Whether the black man or the Indian in this country were the most downtrodden people in our country since 1600 is another argument for another day. I certainly don't need a "UN definition" to formulate an opinion one way or another on that topic. The UN certainly is not the arbiter of American history.

I make no claim that this matter is about "the American Indians of this country asserting their rights" at all. In fact, what I was essentially asking was--Is that the case or not here? Are the Sioux Indians in North Dakota up in arms about this? Have they raised this issue? Or, was this, as I suspect, mostly/all NCAA driven?

As an aside, if the State of North Dakota signed a legally binding agreement to change/phase out the name and now wish they hadn't, well, shame on them. IMHO opinion, barring actual Indian objection that they, themselves, raised to using the name, the State should have told the NCAA to go play in the freeway. There are schools looking to ditch the NCAA altogether and this issue could have been a rallying point around making that come to fruition.

Like I mentioned earlier, I don't know the feelings of the Dakota (or Nakota or Lakota) in question, nor do I have a way to find out right now. When I see one of my coworkers next (she's from the Sisseton community in South Dakota, but has taught at reservations around the Dakotas) I'll ask if she knows more about their feelings.

As for the source of the legal battle, here's what I understand happened (based on information from the UND athletics Wikipedia page and the similar page for UND):

-In 1969, UND garnered the support of the Standing Rock Sioux Reservation council, with the group performing a naming ceremony at UND in exchange for educational assistance for Lakota youth on the reservation. I believe the college also received the support of the Spirit Lake Sioux Reservation at close to the same time, though I don't know if that is the case. I also don't know whether there was a significant shift in support since that time, with the greater awareness that has occurred on both state reservations.

-In 2005, the NCAA began to review team names to see whether they were acceptable to those people they represented - the infamous "hostile and abusive" list. UND's "Fighting Sioux" was placed on that list, as were others (like the CMU Chippewas I mentioned earlier.) Schools either changed their names if out-and-out offensive (which some were), changed their behavior (introducing new actions at games, rather than the old tomahawk chops and such), or gained the support of local tribes who they claimed to represent. Schools on that list were not allowed to use their names or mascots during NCAA-regulated postseason play, and were disallowed from hosting any postseason championships.

-In the meantime, Ralph Engelstad had funded the Engelstad Ice Arena, deliberately placing thousands of current American Indian UND logos around the arena.

-Several groups at UND protested the use of the Fighting Sioux name, including many with American Indian ties and members. However, when confronted by the NCAA, the North Dakota Board of Education asked the state Attorney General to sue the NCAA to keep the name. The matter was settled out of court, with the NCAA allowing the name to stand until 2010, and allowing UND to seek approval from the Spirit Lake and Standing Rock reservations to keep the name indefinitely.

-As the NCAA didn't accept the 1969 Standing Rock ceremony, the university did ask the two reservations for their opinions. The Spirit Lake group overwhelmingly approved the name in a tribal referendum, but the Standing Rock leadership has consistently refused to hold a reservation-wide vote. I don't know whether the prevailing sentiment is such that a measure would pass if allowed. Accordingly, after a one-year extension, and following a state law having been passed to remove the name, the university stopped using the name in 2011. However, a petition was circulated to put the matter on a statewide ballot in June, and the university has resumed use of the Fighting Sioux nickname for now.


So, yes, the State of North Dakota did try to tell the NCAA to go play in the freeway. However, they also did sign a legally-binding agreement to remove the name or seek approval from the recognized tribal governments.

Also, many American Indians at UND and statewide have protested the name. I can't say whether they are activists working outside of the American Indian mainstream to change internal and external perceptions of the Dakota and Lakota, or if they have substantial support within the Standing Rock Sioux Reservation.

And no, I don't expect that UND will ditch the NCAA, unless CIS makes an offer they can't refuse

 

[wooderson]

Re: North Dakota's Team IS THE SIOUX DAMMIT

Now wait a minute. I didn't realize this was a contest and BPH didn't really address the real issue I asked about.

Whether the black man or the Indian in this country were the most downtrodden people in our country since 1600 is another argument for another day. I certainly don't need a "UN definition" to formulate an opinion one way or another on that topic. The UN certainly is not the arbiter of American history.

I make no claim that this matter is about "the American Indians of this country asserting their rights" at all. In fact, what I was essentially asking was--Is that the case or not here? Are the Sioux Indians in North Dakota up in arms about this? Have they raised this issue? Or, was this, as I suspect, mostly/all NCAA driven?

As an aside, if the State of North Dakota signed a legally binding agreement to change/phase out the name and now wish they hadn't, well, shame on them. IMHO opinion, barring actual Indian objection that they, themselves, raised to using the name, the State should have told the NCAA to go play in the freeway. There are schools looking to ditch the NCAA altogether and this issue could have been a rallying point around making that come to fruition.

North Dakota leading a mass walkout on the NCAA? Great idea man. I bet a lot of schools would totally go along with it....

 

[duper]

Re: North Dakota's Team IS THE SIOUX DAMMIT

The wimps over at Miami bailed on being Redskins even before the NCAA mandate came out.

This is DUMB. The guy who wanted Miami to stop being the Redskins had the clear support of the Miami Tribe. I mean, if the people after whom (directly or indirectly) your University is named ask you to change, you have to be pretty GD ignorant to say no.