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Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

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Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

Kepler said:
As you well know, his wealth is not the criticism, it's his lecturing the poor that all they need to succeed is a little elbow grease. The hypocrisy of silver spoon conservatives concern trolling about welfare "dependency" is risible.
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The Kennedys (how convenient of you to limit it to just one) may be the biggest tribe of drunken gangster loving misogynists on the planet, but they're our drunken gangster loving misogynists. Right? Plus you get the added bonus of the occasional vehicular homicide or kiddie rape. Got it.
 
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Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

Priceless said:
Thanks! I realize its hard to refute my point but so much easier to attack me and have come to expect nothing less.
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Your "point" didn't even have a point.

I used the parent/child reference as my own experience, but included with it others, such as teacher student, etc...

If anything your point was not to respond to any of my questions.
 
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

Kepler said:
It's not "lecturing" per se -- I approve of a good hectoring. It's the presumption that people who have had a life of privilege have the right to condemn poverty as self-inflicted. If nothing else, this violates the "mile in a man's shoes" precept.

It's more than condescension, it's willful deflection, because the ultra rich have a dog in this fight, too. By spreading that manure around they're also feathering their own beds.

I just mixed three metaphors in one paragraph; I think I'll sit down.
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So who supplies the hectoring? Only the person who has walked a mile in the shoes of the poor?

Again, I go back to my original questions. I have no problem saying Paul Ryan is poor selection to lecture people on the "how to" of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. So who does it? And, are they doing it now?
 
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Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

Priceless said:
So in your scenario, wealthy people are parents lecturing the poor people as if they were children.

I can't see why anyone would find that condescending at all.
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Just as it's not condescending to look the other way (or even approvingly) at arson, looting and random shootings because, well you know, they've got a right.
 
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

Kepler said:
Zzzzzzzzing.

I was surprised to see how many on the board were social conservatives when we ran one of those scatter plot graphs a while back. Generally speaking, white educated righties are socially moderate and regard all the fulminations about Teh Gayz etc as sand traps on the fairway to the Free Market Paradise. But quite a few folks pegged themselves as solid/far right socially. I wonder whether that's also the regional cross section we have (i.e., midwesterners farther to the right on social issues than the coasties).
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Cleverly put. But still bigoted libt*rd bull sh*t.
 
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

Old Pio said:
Just as it's not condescending to look the other way (or even approvingly) at arson, looting and random shootings because, well you know, they've got a right.
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Who here did that?
 
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

SJHovey said:
So who supplies the hectoring? Only the person who has walked a mile in the shoes of the poor?

Again, I go back to my original questions. I have no problem saying Paul Ryan is poor selection to lecture people on the "how to" of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. So who does it? And, are they doing it now?
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Seems like a classic job for people "from the community."

Take rap, the Echo Chamber's favorite whipping post. There are hundreds of great rap songs about the perils of dropping out of school, selling drugs, becoming a criminal, etc -- e.g., Grandmaster Flash's "The Message" or Ice-T's "You Played Yourself." There are whole neighborhood movements that revolve around the highly practical notion that you can't beat the man if you beat yourself.

And it has the advantage that these words are from people who genuinely care, not cynical politicians just using the poor as a dog whistle for their racist messaging to scare suburbanites.
 
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

Kepler said:
As you well know, his wealth is not the criticism, it's his lecturing the poor that all they need to succeed is a little elbow grease. The hypocrisy of silver spoon conservatives concern trolling about welfare "dependency" is risible.
Click to expand...

The Kennedys (how convenient to limit yourself to just one) may be the biggest tribe of drunken, gangster loving misogynists on the planet. But they're our drunken, gangster loving misogynists, eh? And you get a bonus of the occasional vehicular homicide or kiddie rape, too.
 
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Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

SJHovey said:
Your "point" didn't even have a point.

I used the parent/child reference as my own experience, but included with it others, such as teacher student, etc...

If anything your point was not to respond to any of my questions.
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Oh I'm sorry. Yes, teacher/student is far less condescending.

How about no one lectures them? How about we don't demonize them? How about we don't complain about their pitiful "entitlements" while we hand out billions in corporate welfare? No, we can't do that because it's bad politics and bad for business. If we didn't complain about somebody paying for a candy bar with food stamps people might notice that we just fined Citibank $17 billion or we're giving the most profitable businesses the world has ever seen billions.
 
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

Kepler said:
You'll notice my statement goes for both sides equally.

But another problem is the kind of cartoonism that I perceive in your post. "Well, liberals are all unicorns and rainbows." This may have been true in 1975, but it hasn't been true in my experience, where it has usually been the liberal who is pragmatic while the conservative is reflexively doctrinal. Because of where I grew up, my go-to experience of liberals is the parents of the kids I knew: gravel-voiced, hard scrabble liberal Jews who worked their tuches off to get of poverty and get out of the city, who with open eyes still fought to help the next wave get on up, while my go-to image of a conservative is a smug Paul Ryan sitting on the pillow of his family wealth and pontificating about the virtues of self-reliance. I realize these are anecdotal, but obviously they still affect how I "hear" different narratives.

Everybody thinks their side is logical and the other side is emotional. We all have to self-correct for that. All too often we resort to straw men to put our debate opponent in a box. When it comes to something like Ferguson, totally alien to virtually everybody posting here, it just seems that much more obvious.
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Personal opinion is that you need to self-correct that first statement. Frankly, it shows a rather extreme liberal bias. In my case, I grew up a card-carrying liberal, son of a college professor (who was it who mentioned he had few profs with actual real-world experience?? :D ). But then I grew up, came to my senses, and embraced my inner conservative. Oops. Forgot to self-correct for my inner biases. ;)
 
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

Kepler said:
Seems like a classic job for people "from the community."

Take rap, the Echo Chamber's favorite whipping post. There are hundreds of great rap songs about the perils of dropping out of school, selling drugs, becoming a criminal, etc -- e.g., Grandmaster Flash's "The Message" or Ice-T's "You Played Yourself." There are whole neighborhood movements that revolve around the highly practical notion that you can't beat the man if you beat yourself.

And it has the advantage that these words are from people who genuinely care, not cynical politicians just using the poor as a dog whistle for their racist messaging to scare suburbanites.
Click to expand...

Ice T may or may not "genuinely care," I don't know the man, but I do like the Barbershop movies. But he turns those checks over and endorses them just like the rest of us. "Cynical politicians?" Are you serious? After the display of threats and intimidation from various black office holders last week? Kepler's Theorem: It's only racist when Whitey does it.
 
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

UncleRay said:
Personal opinion is that you need to self-correct that first statement.
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Ray, that's the point. Our personal anecdotal evidence is not statistically relevant, but it still controls our perceptions despite trying to guard against it. And if it's this bad when you realize that confirmation bias is in play, how much worse for people who don't even understand that?

The older I get the farther left I move, but the more I also recognize that there are legitimate arguments and profound insights that can be made from the right (unfortunately none of them have been made by the American right in the last thirty years, but that's a different problem).
 
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

Priceless said:
Oh I'm sorry. Yes, teacher/student is far less condescending.

How about no one lectures them? How about we don't demonize them? How about we don't complain about their pitiful "entitlements" while we hand out billions in corporate welfare? No, we can't do that because it's bad politics and bad for business. If we didn't complain about somebody paying for a candy bar with food stamps people might notice that we just fined Citibank $17 billion or we're giving the most profitable businesses the world has ever seen billions.
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We've spent trillions in the "war on poverty (going all the way back to LBJ giving the Blackstone Rangers a million bucks). What has it gotten us? Shelby Steele writes of "exceptionalism," by which he means bad behavior by blacks is defined as something other than bad or excused as a product of poverty or racism or something. We even had a black member of congress define Damian "Football" Williams as a "rebel" for slamming a chunk of concrete off Reginald Denny's head. Need I remind you that Denny is white? BTW, Damian's serving a life sentence for murder. Quelle surprise.
 
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Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

Old Pio said:
Ice T may or may not "genuinely care," I don't know the man, but I do like the Barbershop movies. But he turns those checks over and endorses them just like the rest of us. "Cynical politicians?" Are you serious? After the display of threats and intimidation from various black office holders last week? Kepler's Theorem: It's only racist when Whitey does it.
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Tell me where I said, anywhere, that racism is just white people? That's neither my intent nor the statement nor its implication. Congratulations, you just scored a natural hat trick in paranoid leaping to conclusions! :)

You may listen to (or host) talk radio too much to remember, but that sort of "I'm going to assign your words an alien meaning and then run wild with it!" makes no headway with people with IQs greater than a lamppost. And you've already got the lampposts on your side, so you're not growing your audience.
 
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

MinnesotaNorthStar said:
You're thinking of Ice Cube, the Don Mega.

Ice T is the guy on Law and Order: SVU

Thus concludes today's lesson in gangsta rap. :D
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Thanks. I really do know the difference. Primarily that Ice T hasn't been a serious rap artist for about as long as he's had a starring role on a hit network TV show. Much less work. Plus you generally don't run the risk of being shot at a gathering of TV stars. The same cannot be said of rap artists.

The scene in Barbershop II where Cedric the Entertainer refers to Alderman Brown as "down low" and "low blow" in the same breath cracks me up every time.
 
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