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Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

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Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

Kepler said:
You could also consider the term "conservative," which comes from the word "conserve," yet the action of people presently associated with said party are doing quite a bit that is radically utopian.

The ancients who used the swastika are SOL for a bit, but they'll have their day again. Napolean had a thing for bees, so for a while bees were bad. Now, to the extent that bees have any political association at all, it's with Utah. In 300 years swastikas will have lost their Nazi association for everybody but historians, and this won't freak people out anymore.
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Oh, I don't doubt that terms have changed meanings throughout history. Gay used to mean happy, hence why it is used in music all the time. George Orwell did warn us about this, too. Heck, perhaps in 400 years, "n*****" will be used in common speech, and have a completely different definition.
 
Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

The confederate flag:

1. State/Government Supported: Should not be allowed. At best, this is a symbol that is flying over a government/public building that is causes some issues for a percentage of the population of the state. It is controversial enough that regardless of what individual people think, it should not be state sponsored. At worst, it could be viewed as treasonous, as it is a flag of a nation that was treasonous in its nature. Bottom line, state sponsored flying of the flag should be stopped.

2. Individual "Southern Pride": Go for it. I am not for forcing people to stop flying a flag, or getting a tattoo or putting a sticker on their truck. That is their individual expression, and their decision to make. For the individuals that chose to fly the flag, just be prepared to explain yourself, have some discretion, and understand that it could be misunderstood.

3. Retailers and Commercial Entities: Should be free to do, and sell whatever the want, as long as it is legal, which it should be to sell this flag. Smart retailers will be conscious of the potential effect on business selling it or not selling will have. Basically, the market will dictate this, so we can just let it run its course.

4. "States Rights" Cause: I am in favor of States Rights, and I understand that some people think of this flag as a symbol of that. It very well may be a symbol of that for some people, many people even, and for them, it seems like a great symbol. The issue is, for many people it has a completely different meaning, a meaning that is only going to muddy the waters of "States Rights". In this case, what the symbol means to other people is more important than what it means to the people in the cause. As long as a symbol this controversial is used, it will overshadow the actual cause. Retire the symbol as a states right symbol, and separate this cause from the racial debate that it currently is tied to. If people are really passionate about States Rights, create a new symbol, something like a star, with the stars and stripes of the USA flag in it, with a "divide by 50" under it. Hell I don't know, I'm not a designer of logos. The point is, if you really believe in this cause, you should want the flag retired, and separated from your cause, because at this point, it is only holding the cause back.
 
geezer said:
It's going to be really interesting to see where this ends up. The obvious parallel is that a swastika display in Germany can get you 3 years in prison, and it's easy to understand why. There's no logical defense for displaying either flag.
Now, I'm sympathetic to arguments that Huckleberry Finn should be allowed in Middle School libraries because it does have value as a unique piece of literature and even as a lesson in how society and language change over time. And in general I'm sympathetic to individual freedoms being upheld. But is there any actual reason a person could give that displaying a certain flag is a personal freedom with any value or positive consequences? Why not just ban them completely? Well...
The massacre at Wounded Knee was a horribly unjust military action. But should the 7th Cavalry be disbanded and it's paraphernalia banned under penalty of law? There's an argument to be honest about our history.
And if the confederate flag is outright banned, can it still be printed in textbooks? I think it should be, I'm hesitant to eradicate the disagreeable bits of our history. So where do you draw the line between hateful provocation and history lesson?
edit: I think so far, so good. The market is making demands and suppliers are responding in their own best interests (Target, WalMart, Amazon, Ebay, Warner Bros.) Perhaps there's no need for a new federal law. Maybe it'll go the way of the n-word, just go ahead and wear that old Confederate t-shirt Bubba, if you want to get the s*** kicked out of you.
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I've re-read this rant twice, and I'm still not sure what it is trying to impart.
 
Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

bigblue_dl said:
Retire the symbol as a states right symbol, and separate this cause from the racial debate that it currently is tied to. If people are really passionate about States Rights, create a new symbol, something like a star, with the stars and stripes of the USA flag in it, with a "divide by 50" under it. Hell I don't know, I'm not a designer of logos. The point is, if you really believe in this cause, you should want the flag retired, and separated from your cause, because at this point, it is only holding the cause back.
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The Gadsden Flag seems like a good symbol for states rights. It recalls Franklin's join or die cartoon, so it has an echo of the Founders, but it also has that tangy "leave me alone or I'll hurt you" pose that is so popular among libertarians, the Tea Party, and the states righters in general.

Was there a symbol for the anti-federalists during the ratification debate? The only emblem I've ever seen is a modern "A" which unfortunately looks just like a klansman. Not exactly what they should be aiming for, given the history of "states rights" movements.
 
Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

unofan said:
I've re-read this rant twice, and I'm still not sure what it is trying to impart.
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Displaying something regularly may irk people the wrong way. Completely purging it by means of a ban it is going too far because it can be seen as an attempt to "erase history".
 
Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

unofan said:
I've re-read this rant twice, and I'm still not sure what it is trying to impart.
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Nothing. I'm just asking a bunch of questions about what people think. My new question is, what is the difference between "political speech" and "hate speech" in this context? (I can see protecting "political speech" but not sure how this applies)
i.e. should it be legal to fly the swastika in Germany?
(the swastika has an interesting history from India to Navajo nation as a good luck symbol; the boy scouts used to award it as a merit badge)
When the retailers give in to the backlash and take it off the shelves there is also an interesting "Chick-Fil-A Effect" of skyrocketing sales for those who do still carry it. I wonder how long that'll last.
 
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Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

No more Dukes of Hazzard toys will be made with the flag on it. That blows. RIP, General Lee.
 
Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

That second one is particularly awful. I don't care how "Americana" this stuff is, who the hell is actually decorating their homes with it?

Uncle Ben and Aunt Jemima get a pass because while they originally stem from racial stereotypes (the black mammy and the house you-know-what), today they can still pass for ordinary, respectable senior citizens. A poster of a child in minstrel-face with corn rows, eating watermelon, and selling a product branded with a racial slur does not.
 
Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

FadeToBlack&Gold said:
That second one is particularly awful. I don't care how "Americana" this stuff is, who the hell is actually decorating their homes with it?
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Black PhDs, American Studies majors, and really, really non-self-reflective racists.

My introduction to VA haute culture was flying down for law school interviews in Charlottesville in 1995. Horsey-set folks still had black face lawn jockeys decorating the family escutcheon, unironically. To be fair this was also the very moment I realized unbelievably horrible people hatched unbelievably toothsome offspring.
 
Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

Slap Shot said:
Sure you are.
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??? I honestly don't get some of you guys. Try to start a conversation and everyone's freaking out about some ulterior motive. If you'd like tips on more appropriate and thoughtful responses, see those provided by BigBlue and Kepler.
 
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Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

geezer said:
??? I honestly don't get some of you guys. Try to start a conversation and everyone's freaking out about some ulterior motive. If you'd like tips on more appropriate and thoughtful responses, see those provided by BigBlue and Kepler.
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Probably because absolutely no one is calling for the confederate flag to be "banned" - as in made criminally illegal. The first amendment pretty clearly protects it.

So since I have no clue how you even arrived at your starting point, the rest of your rant makes absolutely no sense to me.
 
Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

unofan said:
Probably because absolutely no one is calling for the confederate flag to be "banned" - as in made criminally illegal. The first amendment pretty clearly protects it.

So since I have no clue how you even arrived at your starting point, the rest of your rant makes absolutely no sense to me.
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It wasn't here on USCHO, but there are people calling for criminal penalties for displaying it (they would consider it a "hate crime"). Yeah, that would be a pretty serious overreach. I think BigBlue probably hit the right balance between banning it completely and flying it over the White House.
I don't understand the "rant" accusation though. Is it so bad to ask the question of what best to do?
If it completely freaks you out to have people discuss the news of the day you probably shouldn't be on the internet. Find a nice quiet place.
 
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Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

geezer said:
If it completely freaks you out to have people discuss the news of the day you probably shouldn't be on the internet. Find a nice quiet place.
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Come now. unofan is one of our most rational, most interesting, and just plain most intelligent posters. Scrolling back a bit this fracas seems to have come up over very little, on both sides, and in five minutes it will be all over. :)

Meanwhile, what you guys are alluding to in content is really interesting. Some countries have laws that criminalize private political speech -- in England you can't yell racist stuff at soccer games or they'll find you with their Orwellian cameras and prosecute you. In Germany you can't yell Nazi slogans. (I think we should probably let that one slide.) I was watching a Vice show on Muslims in France last night and I didn't realize you can't compare Bibi to Hitler without going to PITA prison for antisemiticism. We don't have those laws here because of the First Amendment and, because I was raised here and this is where I keep all my stuff, I believe that's on the whole for the best. So would-be Duke boys can put the flag on their General Lees, and I can call them "redneck" without going to County, and it's all good. But government political speech is not covered by the First, so we can pass laws saying confederate symbols can't be part of a state flag or displayed on government grounds, if the people support those laws. I don't see a slippery slope towards Thought Crime here.
 
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Kepler said:
Come now. unofan is one of our most rational, most interesting, and just plain most intelligent posters. Scrolling back a bit this fracas seems to have come up over very little, on both sides, and in five minutes it will be all over. :)

Meanwhile, what you guys are alluding to in content is really interesting. Some countries have laws that criminalize private political speech -- in England you can't yell racist stuff at soccer games or they'll find you with their Orwellian cameras and prosecute you. In Germany you can't yell Nazi slogans. (I think we should probably let that one slide.) I was watching a Vice show on Muslims in France last night and I didn't realize you can't compare Bibi to Hitler without going to PITA prison for antisemiticism. We don't have those laws here because of the First Amendment and, because I was raised here and this is where I keep all my stuff, I believe that's on the whole for the best. So would-be Duke boys can put the flag on their General Lees, and I can call them "redneck" without going to County, and it's all good. But government political speech is not covered by the First, so we can pass laws saying confederate symbols can't be part of a state flag or displayed on government grounds, if the people support those laws. I don't see a slippery slope towards Thought Crime here.
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Nearer to home, you forgot Canada.
 
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