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Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

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Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

FlagDUDE08 said:
So much for remembering those who fought in the War Between the States...
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One of the tweeters in that article goes from reporting on one act of vandalism to equating the entire Left with ISIS. That thar's a might broad a brush.:)

The wider Black Lives Matter movement should (and will) disown individual acts of vandalism. Everybody who has tried to wake a slumbering nation's conscience knows that TPTB will use these incidents to try to de-legitimize the movement.

But it will be a little telling that there are people (and presidential candidates) who never made a peep about unarmed blacks being gunned down who now will treat the defacing of a confederate statue as an unprecedented tragedy.
 
Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

Kepler said:
One of the tweeters in that article goes from reporting on one act of vandalism to equating the entire Left with ISIS. That thar's a might broad a brush.:)

The wider Black Lives Matter movement should (and will) disown individual acts of vandalism. Everybody who has tried to wake a slumbering nation's conscience knows that TPTB will use these incidents to try to de-legitimize the movement.

But it will be a little telling that there are people (and presidential candidates) who never made a peep about unarmed blacks being gunned down who now will treat the defacing of a confederate statue as an unprecedented tragedy.
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They won't disown it. The entire movement is entirely centered around race and will use any angle possible to achieve their motive. Anyone who has disowned it has changed their battle cry to "All Lives Matter".
 
Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

FlagDUDE08 said:
They won't disown it. The entire movement is entirely centered around race and will use any angle possible to achieve their motive. Anyone who has disowned it has changed their battle cry to "All Lives Matter".
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That "motive" is for people to recognize that blacks are disproportionately targeted by the police and the court system, while being ignored by the media. That sounds like a sound motive.

It is hardly black supremacist to call out what they perceive as instances of white supremacy and let the world judge. So far, the world seems to be agreeing with them.

I don't see why the motto bothers anybody. The underlying message of "black lives matter" is that all lives matter, but black lives are the collateral damage of the present way we do our politics, economics, and law enforcement. "Stop killing black people" is hardly saying "Kill white people."
 
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Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

Kepler said:
That "motive" is for people to recognize that blacks are disproportionately targeted by the police and the court system, while being ignored by the media. That sounds like a sound motive.

It is hardly black supremacist to call out what they perceive as instances of white supremacy and let the world judge. So far, the world seems to be agreeing with them.

I don't see why the motto bothers anybody. The underlying message of "black lives matter" is that all lives matter, but black lives are the collateral damage of the present way we do our politics, economics, and law enforcement. "Stop killing black people" is hardly saying "Kill white people."
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Here's the flaw in your plan: The media, along with the movement as a whole, is ONLY focusing on white-on-black violence (even though Zimmerman is Hispanic, but facts are hard to consider for everyone) while ignoring black-on-black violence, as well as black-on-white and other combinations. And if you ever watch rallies for these particular groups (Independent reporters typically put them on ustream), they only bring up these specific instances of white-on-black violence. If what you say about black lives matter is true, then they would also be fighting for all violence of this sort. However, that particular group does not, and would rather use vindication to keep the race baiting alive. Follow the fund raising; most comes from Al Sharpton.
 
Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

FlagDUDE08 said:
So much for remembering those who fought in the War Between the States...
Click to expand...

The thing that really bugs me about all of this fervor to change names of places named after Confederates, or to remove statues is that the attitude behind it is completely off-base. Why would we want to destroy that history, to cover it up or remove it, when what we should be doing is using it as an educational tool. Use it to teach young people the mistakes we've made as a culture in the past, use it to help explain why we are where we are now. If we start removing statues, and changing names, how many conversations about slavery and the Civil War won't be started? We should be talking about it, it isn't a good, pleasant part of our history, but that does not mean we should ignore it. Learn from it, and use it to educate youth, and move society forward. It is a huge mistake to hide, or ignore our history, both the good and the bad parts.
 
Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

FlagDUDE08 said:
Here's the flaw in your plan: The media, along with the movement as a whole, is ONLY focusing on white-on-black violence (even though Zimmerman is Hispanic, but facts are hard to consider for everyone) while ignoring black-on-black violence, as well as black-on-white and other combinations. And if you ever watch rallies for these particular groups (Independent reporters typically put them on ustream), they only bring up these specific instances of white-on-black violence. If what you say about black lives matter is true, then they would also be fighting for all violence of this sort. However, that particular group does not, and would rather use vindication to keep the race baiting alive. Follow the fund raising; most comes from Al Sharpton.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure either of us knows what we're talking about on this issue. The people to ask aren't the people we see on TV. As your theory points out, media coverage is always highly suspect, whether they're pushing a deliberate narrative or just trying to spice things up to get eyeballs. The first casualty of television is the truth, and I do not think you or I are the kind of people who will ever know what's really behind this movement. We can only guess, so we're guessing.

I appreciate there are a lot of people out there who believe what you are guessing. My best friend growing up is one of them, and he's one of the smartest and least insensitive people I know. I think you're being duped, but then again you think I'm being duped, and neither of us can prove it. So if you want an all lives matter movement, start it. I'll join that, and I'm betting millions in the black lives matter movement will join it too.
 
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Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

bigblue_dl said:
The thing that really bugs me about all of this fervor to change names of places named after Confederates, or to remove statues is that the attitude behind it is completely off-base. Why would we want to destroy that history, to cover it up or remove it, when what we should be doing is using it as an educational tool. Use it to teach young people the mistakes we've made as a culture in the past, use it to help explain why we are where we are now. If we start removing statues, and changing names, how many conversations about slavery and the Civil War won't be started? We should be talking about it, it isn't a good, pleasant part of our history, but that does not mean we should ignore it. Learn from it, and use it to educate youth, and move society forward. It is a huge mistake to hide, or ignore our history, both the good and the bad parts.
Click to expand...

I don't see how the state retiring these symbols is at odds with anything you've said above. The Germans changed their flag, but they still taught their history.
 
Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

Kepler said:
I don't see how the state retiring these symbols is at odds with anything you've said above. The Germans changed their flag, but they still taught their history.
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I think the flag is in a different category. It should be retired, and it should not be flown by any official government office/building anywhere in the USA.

It is the push to rename geographical locations (this has been a topic here in the Twin Cities, because there is a petition to rename Lake Calhoun), and tear down statues that really bugs me. If we start going down that route we're trying to cover up history, which isn't going to help solve any of the real problems.

edit: for example, on a radio show I listen to often, yesterday afternoon they were discussing this. They had a caller that said anything that is named after any person that owned slaves should be renamed, and any monument should be torn down. This guy wanted Washington DC renamed, Mount Rushmore destroyed, Washington and Jefferson Memorials torn down, and so on. He was obviously very extreme, but the whole idea of it seems so counter productive for society. What good does it to to just forget about it. We need to remember the horrible along with the good.
 
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Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

bigblue_dl said:
It is the push to rename geographical locations (this has been a topic here in the Twin Cities, because there is a petition to rename Lake Calhoun), and tear down statues that really bugs me. If we start going down that route we're trying to cover up history, which isn't going to help solve any of the real problems.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. In particular, I think the statues of the actual generals should stay up. The politicians were traitors and the flag has long since been hijacked by segregationists to specifically symbolize white supremacy, but the generals were doing what they considered their honorable duty, often (as with Lee) after agonizing over the decision.

The statues of confederate soldiers and generals are also a very powerful symbol that is nearly absent from America: sometimes you lose the war, so maybe don't be quite so cavalier about starting one, eh? We could have used a little more of that type of self-reflection before the Iraq disaster, and Lindsey Graham should have a bust of G. E Pickett right next to his bed to ruminate over.
 
Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

Kepler said:
I'm not sure either of us knows what we're talking about on this issue. The people to ask aren't the people we see on TV. As your theory points out, media coverage is always highly suspect, whether they're pushing a deliberate narrative or just trying to spice things up to get eyeballs. The first casualty of television is the truth, and I do not think you or I are the kind of people who will ever know what's really behind this movement. We can only guess, so we're guessing.

I appreciate there are a lot of people out there who believe what you are guessing. My best friend growing up is one of them, and he's one of the smartest and least insensitive people I know. I think you're being duped, but then again you think I'm being duped, and neither of us can prove it. So if you want an all lives matter movement, start it. I'll join that, and I'm betting millions in the black lives matter movement will join it too.
Click to expand...

Everyone's being duped by TV. This is why I have had to turn to independent sources (and I don't mean Infowars either, as they're starting to become mainstream). If you're near any of these rallies and can watch it from a safe distance or an uncut live stream, you can get a better idea of what they stand for. I have seen all races march during some marches in the STL area (whether or not feelings of white guilt exist in any direction's perception, I don't know), but by the same token, I've seen rallies where the videographer was harassed, I presume for being white or trying to get something incriminating, but they did shut up once they found out it was a livestream and just promoting their rally.

I don't need to start a movement, because that's attention whoring. I'd rather broadcast the message by example, because at the end of the day, actions speak louder than words.
 
Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

bigblue_dl said:
I think the flag is in a different category. It should be retired, and it should not be flown by any official government office/building anywhere in the USA.

It is the push to rename geographical locations (this has been a topic here in the Twin Cities, because there is a petition to rename Lake Calhoun), and tear down statues that really bugs me. If we start going down that route we're trying to cover up history, which isn't going to help solve any of the real problems.

edit: for example, on a radio show I listen to often, yesterday afternoon they were discussing this. They had a caller that said anything that is named after any person that owned slaves should be renamed, and any monument should be torn down. This guy wanted Washington DC renamed, Mount Rushmore destroyed, Washington and Jefferson Memorials torn down, and so on. He was obviously very extreme, but the whole idea of it seems so counter productive for society. What good does it to to just forget about it. We need to remember the horrible along with the good.
Click to expand...

We can actually learn a lot from destruction as well. During the French Revolution, many historical monuments were destroyed because they referenced the aristocracy. When the USSR was in its infancy, we saw similar things happen. And how many historic artifacts of the existence of a matriarchal society do we have, aside from Judaism? The biggest thing we can learn from all of these sorts of events, whether good or bad in perception, is that there is a totalitarian method of operation ensuring that only the one group's message is shared amongst the populace.

This discussion makes me want to watch that South Park episode about the town flag again.
 
Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

FlagDUDE08 said:
Here's the flaw in your plan: The media, along with the movement as a whole, is ONLY focusing on white-on-black violence (even though Zimmerman is Hispanic, but facts are hard to consider for everyone) while ignoring black-on-black violence, as well as black-on-white and other combinations. And if you ever watch rallies for these particular groups (Independent reporters typically put them on ustream), they only bring up these specific instances of white-on-black violence. If what you say about black lives matter is true, then they would also be fighting for all violence of this sort. However, that particular group does not, and would rather use vindication to keep the race baiting alive. Follow the fund raising; most comes from Al Sharpton.
Click to expand...
Well Zimmerman self identifies as white as far as I know. As far as black on black or black on white violence, for some reason those actually get prosecuted and the one the media focuses on (according to you) in a lot of cases doesn't. And there's been a lot of evidence of that over the past year or so (and well beyond that).
 
Re: Nice Planet IX: Oh that's just GREAT...

FlagDUDE08 said:
Everyone's being duped by TV. This is why I have had to turn to independent sources (and I don't mean Infowars either, as they're starting to become mainstream). If you're near any of these rallies and can watch it from a safe distance or an uncut live stream, you can get a better idea of what they stand for.
Click to expand...

Being there is the best way to build evidence, though of course when the there is big sometimes you can grab only one part of the elephant.

Evaluating live blogging is always pure guesswork. So, for instance, I read some really legit-sounding blogging in the thick of Fukushima, and the revolt against Mubarak, and again during Euromaidan. Were they telling the truth? Did they have enough of a grasp on the big picture to be telling truths that mattered to the whole truth? That comes down to trust earned over time, and with one-off events like Ferguson or Baltimore there's just not much time for a source to demonstrate their level of honesty or access.

"Alternate" media outlets have the same problems as the mainstream -- they may be co-opted (or wholly owned by one of the parties), they may be incompetent, or they may only be "independent" in the sense that they are pushing their own agenda which, while not allied with either party to the fracas, has nothing to do with the truth either. Sites like Prison Planet for example seem to glory in just saying the opposite of whatever the mainstream is reporting, since their rice bowl is Conspiracy, and if there's a Conspiracy then obviously the media has to be lying.
 
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