New age restrictions for NCAA hockey

[UMICH]

Re: New age restrictions for NCAA hockey

Roughly 40% of college students are 25 and older - source.

What percent of that 40% are Freshmen? Make a relevant point please....

I'm also assuming that those statistics are including Community Colleges WITHOUT sports teams.

 

[Dutchman]

Re: New age restrictions for NCAA hockey

Yet the age of college hockey players more closely resembles the student population as a whole

Good point !!! and the actual data from none other than the University of Minnesota, for 2015, bears this out.
Campus and Unit Enrollment by Age for Fall 2015
http://www.oir.umn.edu/student/enrollment/term/1159/current/13267
(Data on this report is an age range which the student falls into at the start of the term.)

The data is broken out for each of the University of Minnesota campuses and system wide as well. For the Twin Cities campus, 15,944 are at or OVER 25 (31%) and 31,373 are at or OVER 21 (62%). After looking over these figures you really get the sense of the enormous hypocrisy on the part of the University on Minnesota in generating this proposal. If we are thinking student athletes and what gives them the most choice and positions them for the rigors of competitive academics, older is better. Look at how many college D1 football and basketball players never graduate. These teams are nothing more than farm teams for the pro's. College hockey is doing an outstanding job around academics and college graduation rates because the players are older than in most other sports. Why don't we leave it up to the families and players to decide what is in their best interests and what is best for them?

 

[St. Clown]

Re: New age restrictions for NCAA hockey

What percent of that 40% are Freshmen? Make a relevant point please....

I'm also assuming that those statistics are including Community Colleges WITHOUT sports teams.

What percentage of the general student population are freshmen at 25yo or older? I don't know, the government didn't give us that figure. What's your point? How many college hockey players are 25yo or older as freshmen? (Zero.)

 

[St. Clown]

Re: New age restrictions for NCAA hockey

To be fair, it's probably not right to compare hockey player average ages to the nationwide average. I suspect that the nationwide average age is dragged upwards by a lot of the "Central Western Valley State University at Podunk" type schools whose missions are entirely different (still valuable, mind you) from Cornell, for example. The average age of freshmen entering Cornell this year is 18, so a 21-year-old freshman is definitely not the norm. I'm sure that's true at most schools playing D-1 hockey, which tend to be toward the higher end of the academic range.

To be fair, your experience is with the Ivies. My experience at SCSU is that during my freshman year I lived in the dorm popular with the Army ROTC students and athletes as it was closest to the Halenbeck Hall and the NHC, so I saw a lot of non-18 year old freshmen. State schools have a higher average student population age than the standard Ivy League school, I'd wager.

As an example, my nephew attends Mankato State currently. He joined the Army Reserves, not as a ROTC, just enlisted. He graduated high school at 18.5 years old, went to basic in July that year, then had his specialized training (forget the official name it has) and then was immediately deployed to Kuwait in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. He was 20.75 years old when he was able to finally begin taking classes at Mankato.

My niece just graduated from high school this past June, and she has a November birthday. She's taking the year off to work in order to then pay for college classes. She will be three months shy of her 20th birthday when she enters her first college classroom next fall. Her situation is becoming more and more common for students (more likely their parents) wary of those huge student loan figures we're seeing.

The student population is on an upward trend in age, and these B1G Mistake coaches are trying to buck that trend because it serves their personal purpose of trying to win more games. Why else would they push this agenda? They don't care about their own students athletes until they're actually of service to their program. They certainly don't care about what's best for their opponents' players.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: New age restrictions for NCAA hockey

To be fair, your experience is with the Ivies. My experience at SCSU is that during my freshman year I lived in the dorm popular with the Army ROTC students and athletes as it was closest to the Halenbeck Hall and the NHC, so I saw a lot of non-18 year old freshmen. State schools have a higher average student population age than the standard Ivy League school, I'd wager.

To be even more fair, it has nothing to do with experience or anecdotes, but the hard statistics. I was really surprised to see the numbers that Dutchman dug up for UMTC - I didn't think the #s at a top-tier public school would be all that different from an Ivy.

And it turns out....they're not. I couldn't find official statistics published by Cornell, but according to this site, 24% of Cornell undergrads are over age 25 (compared with 31% at UMTC). I believe that the key factor which I forgot before is that the freshman statistics don't include transfers and non-traditional students (which Cornell refers to as "mature" students). So it's rather tautological that the average age of students who enter at age 18 would have an average age of....18, but the general student body is a good bit older than that on average.

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: New age restrictions for NCAA hockey

To me St. Clown's argument is that the other 168,000 D1 athletes are too young compared to hockey and the student body. If that is indeed a relevant issue then the NCAA should change the rules for everyone else. Which is a conversation that probably comes with a whole slew of different arguments for or against.

Maybe it isn't relevant that all other D-1 athletes are younger, I don't know for sure. There is though only one reason the age was raised for hockey: Junior Hockey.
Do we even agree that there is some age that should be too old for D-1? If Junior Hockey extended to 25 should the NCAA do likewise? Statistically there are plenty of students that age or older entering college.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: New age restrictions for NCAA hockey

To me St. Clown's argument is that the other 168,000 D1 athletes are too young compared to hockey and the student body. If that is indeed a relevant issue then the NCAA should change the rules for everyone else. Which is a conversation that probably comes with a whole slew of different arguments for or against.

Maybe it isn't relevant that all other D-1 athletes are younger, I don't know for sure. There is though only one reason the age was raised for hockey: Junior Hockey.
Do we even agree that there is some age that should be too old for D-1? If Junior Hockey extended to 25 should the NCAA do likewise? Statistically there are plenty of students that age or older entering college.

But no one is arguing that college hockey get older, they're just saying that the good outways the bad in keeping things the way they currently are.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: New age restrictions for NCAA hockey

But no one is arguing that college hockey get older, they're just saying that the good outways the bad in keeping things the way they currently are.

Although you occasionally hear some chatter about making Freshman ineligible, giving new students a chance acclimate academically before competing. One variation of that idea would preserve 4 years of eligibility, from Year 2 forward. That would have the effect of making "college hockey get older."

Granted, this particular scenario is highly unlikely. But if enacted, it could replace the option of a redshirt year. In effect you'd make everyone take a redshirt their first year on campus.

Thinking out loud: Maybe this suggests a middle ground on the "Lucia Plan." If a player spends an extra year in Juniors, maybe that should burn his redshirt year. If you limited the change to that, the 21 year old Freshman would still have 4 years of eligibility, 4 years of financial aid, etc. In other words, the critics' biggest concerns would be addressed, while putting a modest limit on extreme cases.

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: New age restrictions for NCAA hockey

For a hockey team, 8 of the players dressed would have to be 25 or older to represent the student population as a whole.

But no one is arguing that college hockey get older, they're just saying that the good outways the bad in keeping things the way they currently are.

It seems to me that is the logical conclusion of what St. clown is saying. That athletes age should represent the student body as a whole. If it's important that Hockey "more closely represent the student body" than other D-1 sports, it would seem logically to follow that it would be even better if it actually mirrored the gen. pop.

Edit The above 8 players 25 or older wouldn't be achieved by simply retaining a 21 age limit.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: New age restrictions for NCAA hockey

It seems to me that is the logical conclusion of what St. clown is saying. That athletes age should represent the student body as a whole. If it's important that Hockey "more closely represent the student body" than other D-1 sports, it would seem logically to follow that it would be even better if it actually mirrored the gen. pop.

Edit The above 8 players 25 or older wouldn't be achieved by simply retaining a 21 age limit.

I'm not saying that the age of the hockey players should be older, I was simply refuting the idea that the rules should change in order to force freshmen hockey players to be younger just so they can be more like the "average" freshman. I'm fine with the current eligibility rules, never occurred to me to change them. Lucia and the B1G coaches are looking to change the game because they're having issues winning against other conferences. Rather than work within the current structures, they're creating the artificial reasons to force the rest of NCAA hockey look more like their teams. They're trying to pout their way into more wins. It's embarrassing.

 

[Slap Shot]

For a hockey team...

That doesn't answer my question in context of of your response to his comment.. The fact is none of them are 25+.

 

[Slap Shot]

. Lucia and the B1G coaches are looking to change the game because they're having issues winning against other conferences. .

When was the last NC by a NACHO, 2005? The Gophers had more wins the past 4 seasons than any team in the country. So Lucia concocted this idea in the time since the last season ended and in advance of somehow knowing that this season would be a struggle and figured he could slip one past all you geniuses? Do you know how illogical that sounds? This proposal was made with the athlete in mind and nothing else.

 

[Ronnieb]

When was the last NC by a NACHO, 2005? The Gophers had more wins the past 4 seasons than any team in the country. So Lucia concocted this idea in the time since the last season ended and in advance of somehow knowing that this season would be a struggle and figured he could slip one past all you geniuses? Do you know how illogical that sounds? This proposal was made with the athlete in mind and nothing else.

How does this have any benefit to "the athlete"? Waste of time proposal

 

[St. Clown]

Re: New age restrictions for NCAA hockey

When was the last NC by a NACHO, 2005? The Gophers had more wins the past 4 seasons than any team in the country. So Lucia concocted this idea in the time since the last season ended and in advance of somehow knowing that this season would be a struggle and figured he could slip one past all you geniuses? Do you know how illogical that sounds? This proposal was made with the athlete in mind and nothing else.

I keep reading that by Gopher fans, but the team keeps dropping games against older teams when it comes down to the big ones. Winning all regular season long is all well and good, but they need to finish out that success with a national championship if it's going to mean anything.

 

[Siouxfaninseattle]

Re: New age restrictions for NCAA hockey

When was the last NC by a NACHO, 2005? The Gophers had more wins the past 4 seasons than any team in the country. So Lucia concocted this idea in the time since the last season ended and in advance of somehow knowing that this season would be a struggle and figured he could slip one past all you geniuses? Do you know how illogical that sounds? This proposal was made with the athlete in mind and nothing else.

Bwahahahahaha. Were you able to type this with a straight face?

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: New age restrictions for NCAA hockey

Good point !!! and the actual data from none other than the University of Minnesota, for 2015, bears this out.
Campus and Unit Enrollment by Age for Fall 2015
http://www.oir.umn.edu/student/enrollment/term/1159/current/13267
(Data on this report is an age range which the student falls into at the start of the term.)

The data is broken out for each of the University of Minnesota campuses and system wide as well. For the Twin Cities campus, 15,944 are at or OVER 25 (31%) and 31,373 are at or OVER 21 (62%). After looking over these figures you really get the sense of the enormous hypocrisy on the part of the University on Minnesota in generating this proposal. If we are thinking student athletes and what gives them the most choice and positions them for the rigors of competitive academics, older is better. Look at how many college D1 football and basketball players never graduate. These teams are nothing more than farm teams for the pro's. College hockey is doing an outstanding job around academics and college graduation rates because the players are older than in most other sports. Why don't we leave it up to the families and players to decide what is in their best interests and what is best for them?

Deserves a bump.

(Endless bumps, actually... These stats obviate this entire thread, and reveal Lucia's gripes as either specious, ignorant, or both.)

 

[Stauber1]

Re: New age restrictions for NCAA hockey

I keep reading that by Gopher fans, but the team keeps dropping games against older teams when it comes down to the big ones. Winning all regular season long is all well and good, but they need to finish out that success with a national championship if it's going to mean anything.

Which "big" one was a loss to a program that relies on the type of player affected by this? Their loss to BC in the Frozen Four? The game they lost to Yale, a team that has virtually no players, in any year, who would fall under this legislation? Their loss to a Union team that had only 4 players who would have been affected by this (none of whom would have been ineligible that season, nor were they big producers)? Their loss to UMD last year, a team with less than a handful of players who would be affected?

You can keep saying the same thing over and over, it still won't make it true. The bottom line is that this rule would do next to nothing to tipping the competitive balance among the top 60-70% of Div. 1 hockey. You don't have to take my word for it. Just look at rosters. It's completely evident.

Or you could take Mel Pearson's word for it. Once again he shows himself to be nothing but class with his honest and frank response to what he thinks about this proposal. His comments start at about the 5:40 mark:
http://static.psbin.com/m/x/9euhc9rzjwxona/melpearsonshow113015_05.mp3

To sum up his thoughts -
- I get it. We're about the only sport that has such a large age gap in participating players
- In the grand scheme of things, this rule really won't have any effect on us (Mi Tech)
- If I were to vote on it, I wouldn't support it, we already have an age limit and I just don't see the need for this new rule
- My problem is the way this is being introduced. We are all partners in college hockey, and the process should have included all the partners

 

[LynahFan]

Re: New age restrictions for NCAA hockey

Also, just wanted to mention that every time I read this thread title, I smile at the thought of college hockey players being restricted from using crystals, aroma therapy, and reiki...

 

[Tipsy McStagger]

I like the idea of making college hockey younger.... it's college hockey... you want just hockey, go find it somewhere else.

Because everyone who starts college does it at age 19?

 

[Tipsy McStagger]

To be fair, your experience is with the Ivies. My experience at SCSU is that during my freshman year I lived in the dorm popular with the Army ROTC students and athletes as it was closest to the Halenbeck Hall and the NHC, so I saw a lot of non-18 year old freshmen. State schools have a higher average student population age than the standard Ivy League school, I'd wager.

As an example, my nephew attends Mankato State currently. He joined the Army Reserves, not as a ROTC, just enlisted. He graduated high school at 18.5 years old, went to basic in July that year, then had his specialized training (forget the official name it has) and then was immediately deployed to Kuwait in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. He was 20.75 years old when he was able to finally begin taking classes at Mankato.

Guess he should have thought about that before he decided to not go to college when everyone else did. College hockey can't continue to try to be a feeder system for the pros unless everybody prioritizes hockey over learning. Next thing you know, we'll have people advocating that the only requirement for being on a college team be that they attend the college.