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NCAA Tourney Team Selection Options

DrunkTrainPolka

GO TECH GOLD!
in this order...

1) two teams from each conference for a total of 12;

- regular season champion
- conference tourney champion
- if they are the same team, i would take the conference tourney runner up (you could argue for the regular season runner up but i think that's less exciting)

2) four 'extra' teams (this is where it gets real fun) for a total of 16;

- teams that have the longest (going backwards) continuous streak of NCAA tourney appearances staring with 2019 -OR-
- teams that have the longest (going backwards) continuous streak of NCAA tourney appearances staring with 2019 without a NCAA championship in their history -OR-
- the last four NCAA championship winners (obviously none of these three options including any of the 12 teams above)

my pick would be the second option to pick the four teams... just because i like cinderellas.

GO TECH GOLD!
 
in this order...

1) two teams from each conference for a total of 12;

- regular season champion
- conference tourney champion
- if they are the same team, i would take the conference tourney runner up (you could argue for the regular season runner up but i think that's less exciting)

2) four 'extra' teams (this is where it gets real fun) for a total of 16;

- teams that have the longest (going backwards) continuous streak of NCAA tourney appearances staring with 2019 -OR-
- teams that have the longest (going backwards) continuous streak of NCAA tourney appearances staring with 2019 without a NCAA championship in their history -OR-
- the last four NCAA championship winners (obviously none of these three options including any of the 12 teams above)

my pick would be the second option to pick the four teams... just because i like cinderellas.

GO TECH GOLD!

This could be as controversial as what the govt & sports should be doing about Covid !
 
BTW, my cousin used to run a train from Nogales down to Mazatlan, filled full of college students on Spring Break, called the "Tequila Train", was drunk but no Polka......
 
I think option 1 is a non-starter. How can you justify giving 2 bids to the AHA when under normal circumstances, they only get one team into the tournament. Also doesn’t make sense when you have a 4-team ECAC this year.

I don’t know what the solution should be and I don’t envy the decision makers.
 
I think option 1 is a non-starter. How can you justify giving 2 bids to the AHA when under normal circumstances, they only get one team into the tournament. Also doesn’t make sense when you have a 4-team ECAC this year.

I don’t know what the solution should be and I don’t envy the decision makers.

Modified Colorado College Rule, applicable to Hockey East, B1G, NCHC, and WCHA. 1 Auto-bid for AHA and ECAC.

Put in place criteria for the remaining 6 selections, including: (1) the team must be over .500; (2a) for teams in conferences, the team must be in the top-half of the conference (regular season) or have advanced to the conference's tournament championship game; (2b) for Independents, the team must have at least 1 win over a top-half CC Rule conference team; and (3) no more than 2 additional teams from any one conference. This should bring the total teams in consideration for the remaining 6 selections down to approximately 13-15 teams. The smoke-filled room takes it from there, but at least there are specific criteria in place heading into the selection.
 
Modified Colorado College Rule, applicable to Hockey East, B1G, NCHC, and WCHA. 1 Auto-bid for AHA and ECAC.

Put in place criteria for the remaining 6 selections, including: (1) the team must be over .500; (2a) for teams in conferences, the team must be in the top-half of the conference (regular season) or have advanced to the conference's tournament championship game; (2b) for Independents, the team must have at least 1 win over a top-half CC Rule conference team; and (3) no more than 2 additional teams from any one conference. This should bring the total teams in consideration for the remaining 6 selections down to approximately 13-15 teams. The smoke-filled room takes it from there, but at least there are specific criteria in place heading into the selection.

In the old smoke filled room, one of the most important criteria, and maybe most controversial, was the "how have you done in the last 16 games" question. Many a year went by where the committee justified their selection by picking a team (usually a name school) by claiming they played great over the last two months.
 
In the old smoke filled room, one of the most important criteria, and maybe most controversial, was the "how have you done in the last 16 games" question. Many a year went by where the committee justified their selection by picking a team (usually a name school) by claiming they played great over the last two months.

This carried over into the Pairwise era as well. I don't remember exactly when, but for awhile record over the last 16 games was a comparison point.
 
Pairwise tried to be objective and measure the strength of conferences based on OOC games. Can’t be done this year for obvious reasons.

Here’s my solution:
ECAC: they get one bid for whoever is their tournament winner. Only four teams. No need for multiple bids.

other five conferences: 3 conditional bids. 1 bid goes to your regular season winner. 1 bid goes to your post season tournament winner. One at large bid is picked by the committee for that conference.

I say conditional 3 bids because it is possible a team wins both the regular season and conference tournament. If this happens, that team get a bye to the second round and the conference only gets two bids. The number of teams in the tournament is decreased by one. Winning both would equal winning a first round game.

ASU would be eligible for B1G at large bid. LIU isn’t eligible anyway so we don’t have to worry about them.

It’s objective. It rewards regular season and conference tournament success. It has the potential to have a smaller field if teams win both RS and tournament, and with the virus having less teams isn’t the worst idea.
 
I'm a little shocked nothing has been put forth yet by the NCAA regarding post season play. Part of me thinks they are hoping Covid ramps up again the they can just scrap the tourney since they care very little about it anyway. The other part of me figures they are too busy figuring out how to make their cash cow, the basketball tourney, happen in a way that generates millions of dollars in revenue.

As for who makes the tourney, honestly we're down to just discussing conferences at this point. ASU has eliminated themselves with their record. Even if they win out they'll only be at 0.500.

While it is a reasonable point to give one spot to a regular season champ and a conference tourney champ, conferences like the NCHC would never agree to losing a tourney spot if the same team wins both. Also given the one and done nature of any tourney, rewarding regular season play makes sense. So if you have a double champion, then your second place regular season team is in the NCAA tourney.

I absolutely think that Atlantic Hockey deserves a minimum of two spots this year. It's a one and done tourney, anything can happen. Just ask all the teams that have lost to AH teams in the tourney before. As for the ECAC, it is very hard to argue against them only getting one team this year. Every conference should be treated equal this year, but with only four active teams I just can't make the case that they should get the same number of teams in the tourney as conferences w/ 10+ teams.

Since you have very little play between conferences, you really need to treat all conferences as equals this year. Yeah I know that thought really grinds some conferences that think they are heads and tails above the rest, but you'll get your two or more teams in so don't worry about it. Your 4th place team doesn't deserve to be in the tourney, especially this year with no comparison to other conferences. And no, I'm not buying any of that "past year's performance" being factored into the tourney field. Teams from the last decade are not playing in the 2021 NCAA tourney. Their results are useless to consider in this scenario. The only true equality is trying to get an equal percentage of teams from each conference in the tourney and then let the teams play the games. This scenario give each conference 25%-28% of their teams in the tourney. That's about as fair as you can make it. AH and HE can have their two champs plus 2nd place regular season, or if you have a double champ, the 3rd place regular season team.

AH - 11 teams - 3 bids (27%)
BIG - 7 teams - 2 bids (28%)
ECAC - 4 teams - 1 bid (25%)
HE - 11 teams - 3 bids (27%)
NCHC - 8 teams - 2 bids (25%)
WCHA - 8 teams - 2 bids (25%)

This gives you 13 teams in and lets the smoke filled room have their say with three additional teams, no more than one extra for any conference. Knowing hockey "experts" that pretty much that means the Big and NCHC will each get one more, because that's how humans work. They'll take a 0.500 Denver team over AIC with a 0.750 record every day of the week and twice on Sunday because of "history" and "the name" (especially with a regional slated to be truly "out West" this year an hour from Denver.

If HE has 5 teams with records over 0.600 when "the room" meets, I think that's a strong case for HE get a 4th team over the WCHA getting a 3rd team. If the WCHA has three teams with records over 0.700 when the smoke clears then they get the final bid, but that scenario is less likely.

AH - 11 teams - 3 bids (27%)
BIG - 7 teams - 3 bids (43%)
ECAC - 4 teams - 1 bid (25%)
HE - 11 teams - 4 bids (36%)
NCHC - 8 teams - 3 bids (37%)
WCHA - 8 teams - 2 bids (25%)
Sixteen teams... done.
 
I'm a little shocked nothing has been put forth yet by the NCAA regarding post season play. Part of me thinks they are hoping Covid ramps up again the they can just scrap the tourney since they care very little about it anyway. The other part of me figures they are too busy figuring out how to make their cash cow, the basketball tourney, happen in a way that generates millions of dollars in revenue.

As for who makes the tourney, honestly we're down to just discussing conferences at this point. ASU has eliminated themselves with their record. Even if they win out they'll only be at 0.500.

While it is a reasonable point to give one spot to a regular season champ and a conference tourney champ, conferences like the NCHC would never agree to losing a tourney spot if the same team wins both. Also given the one and done nature of any tourney, rewarding regular season play makes sense. So if you have a double champion, then your second place regular season team is in the NCAA tourney.

I absolutely think that Atlantic Hockey deserves a minimum of two spots this year. It's a one and done tourney, anything can happen. Just ask all the teams that have lost to AH teams in the tourney before. As for the ECAC, it is very hard to argue against them only getting one team this year. Every conference should be treated equal this year, but with only four active teams I just can't make the case that they should get the same number of teams in the tourney as conferences w/ 10+ teams.

Since you have very little play between conferences, you really need to treat all conferences as equals this year. Yeah I know that thought really grinds some conferences that think they are heads and tails above the rest, but you'll get your two or more teams in so don't worry about it. Your 4th place team doesn't deserve to be in the tourney, especially this year with no comparison to other conferences. And no, I'm not buying any of that "past year's performance" being factored into the tourney field. Teams from the last decade are not playing in the 2021 NCAA tourney. Their results are useless to consider in this scenario. The only true equality is trying to get an equal percentage of teams from each conference in the tourney and then let the teams play the games. This scenario give each conference 25%-28% of their teams in the tourney. That's about as fair as you can make it. AH and HE can have their two champs plus 2nd place regular season, or if you have a double champ, the 3rd place regular season team.

AH - 11 teams - 3 bids (27%)
BIG - 7 teams - 2 bids (28%)
ECAC - 4 teams - 1 bid (25%)
HE - 11 teams - 3 bids (27%)
NCHC - 8 teams - 2 bids (25%)
WCHA - 8 teams - 2 bids (25%)

This gives you 13 teams in and lets the smoke filled room have their say with three additional teams, no more than one extra for any conference. Knowing hockey "experts" that pretty much that means the Big and NCHC will each get one more, because that's how humans work. They'll take a 0.500 Denver team over AIC with a 0.750 record every day of the week and twice on Sunday because of "history" and "the name" (especially with a regional slated to be truly "out West" this year an hour from Denver.

If HE has 5 teams with records over 0.600 when "the room" meets, I think that's a strong case for HE get a 4th team over the WCHA getting a 3rd team. If the WCHA has three teams with records over 0.700 when the smoke clears then they get the final bid, but that scenario is less likely.

AH - 11 teams - 3 bids (27%)
BIG - 7 teams - 3 bids (43%)
ECAC - 4 teams - 1 bid (25%)
HE - 11 teams - 4 bids (36%)
NCHC - 8 teams - 3 bids (37%)
WCHA - 8 teams - 2 bids (25%)
Sixteen teams... done.

I have no idea how they'll come up with the field, but I think they'll surprise a lot of people if they put 3 AHA teams into the field, given the fact that only once in their history have they had an at-large bid.

My assessment as to what they should do (and might, if they use the so-called "eye test"):

AHA - 1 team
B1G - 3 teams
ECAC - 2 teams
HE - 4 teams
NCHC - 4 teams
WCHA - 2 teams

I think the most likely scenario for what they will do will be two auto bids to each conference, one for the tournament winner and one for the regular season winner. If one team wins both, they'll probably leave it to each conference to decide whether the second bid goes to the regular season runner up or the tourney runner up.

Then, the four remaining at-large teams will be selected using the "eye test," which will likely result in one additional B1G team and the other three spots coming out of the NCHC and HE, with one conference getting a total of four teams and one getting a total of three.
 
With the number of teams that aren't playing why are they even committed to a 16 team field? I wonder if it gets to a point where they try to do the old 6 team super regionals with a 12 team field. It would certainly be nice to get a plan announced even if changes have to be made along the way.

Basketball is having their tournament all within the state of Indiana. If basketball is doing that i have a hard time envisioning the 4 regional format taking place. And we don't even know about that since Manchester backed out. I do think we will see a tournament of some sort but you gotta announce something soon.
 
My proposed format could get you to as little as 11 teams, so I’m not opposed to a smaller tournament but I’d want it to be as objectively picked and seeded as possible, which is hard with such a shortened regular season and almost no OOC games.

For 12 teams you could do two bids per conference. Eventually you’re gonna need byes. I suppose you could have teams play the two rounds and then of the three remaining, whoever has the best goal differential gets a bye to the championship?
 
My proposed format could get you to as little as 11 teams, so I’m not opposed to a smaller tournament but I’d want it to be as objectively picked and seeded as possible, which is hard with such a shortened regular season and almost no OOC games.

For 12 teams you could do two bids per conference. Eventually you’re gonna need byes. I suppose you could have teams play the two rounds and then of the three remaining, whoever has the best goal differential gets a bye to the championship?

It wouldn't shock me if they shrunk the field in light of both the reduced number of teams playing and the fact that Manchester bowed out as a regional host. It'll probably be easier to dump one of the three remaining cities as a host rather than find a replacement for Manchester.

However, keeping it at 16 teams does give the committee some cover. They can give two bids to each conference, which should stop the squealing from the AHA, ECAC and WCHA, and still have four bids to give to at-large teams from the more traditional power conferences. I still think that's the way they'll go, although making it two eight team regionals wouldn't surprise me.
 
It wouldn't shock me if they shrunk the field in light of both the reduced number of teams playing and the fact that Manchester bowed out as a regional host. It'll probably be easier to dump one of the three remaining cities as a host rather than find a replacement for Manchester.

However, keeping it at 16 teams does give the committee some cover. They can give two bids to each conference, which should stop the squealing from the AHA, ECAC and WCHA, and still have four bids to give to at-large teams from the more traditional power conferences. I still think that's the way they'll go, although making it two eight team regionals wouldn't surprise me.

The B1G is traditional? They haven't been around 10 years yet! :-D ;-)
 
The B1G is traditional? They haven't been around 10 years yet! :-D ;-)

Yeah, "traditional" probably wasn't the best choice for a description. My intent was to refer to those conferences that have more frequently placed multiple teams in the tournament, and are playing with a full conference this year.
 
Modified Colorado College Rule, applicable to Hockey East, B1G, NCHC, and WCHA. 1 Auto-bid for AHA and ECAC.

Put in place criteria for the remaining 6 selections, including: (1) the team must be over .500; (2a) for teams in conferences, the team must be in the top-half of the conference (regular season) or have advanced to the conference's tournament championship game; (2b) for Independents, the team must have at least 1 win over a top-half CC Rule conference team; and (3) no more than 2 additional teams from any one conference. This should bring the total teams in consideration for the remaining 6 selections down to approximately 13-15 teams. The smoke-filled room takes it from there, but at least there are specific criteria in place heading into the selection.

If this selection criteria were utilized, the eligible field for at-large selection would largely be narrowed down to the following (teams that do not currently meet the criteria, but still could, noted in italics):

AHA:
AIC
Robert Morris
Army
Canisius
RIT
Sacred Heart
Mercyhurst


B1G:
Minnesota*
Wisconsin
Michigan
Notre Dame
Penn State


ECAC:
Quinnipiac
Clarkson
St. Lawrence
Colgate


Hockey East:
Boston College*
Boston University
Massachusetts
Northeastern
Providence
Connecticut
Massachusetts Lowell


NCHC:
SCSU
Minnesota Duluth
Nebraska Omaha

WCHA:
Minnesota State*
LSSU
Bowling Green
Northern Michigan
Bemidji State
Michigan Tech


Auto Bids:
AHA Tournament Champion
B1G Tournament Champion
B1G Regular Season Champion
ECAC Tournament Champion
Hockey East Tournament Champion
Hockey East Regular Season Champion
NCHC Tournament Champion
North Dakota (NCHC Regular Season Champion)
WCHA Tournament Champion
WCHA Regular Season Champion

Would Need Tournament Auto Bid: (Alphabetical)
Air Force
Alabama Huntsville
Bentley
Colorado College
Denver
Ferris State
Holy Cross
Maine
Merrimack
Miami
Michigan State
New Hampshire
Niagara
Ohio State
Vermont
Western Michigan

Eliminated
Arizona State
Long Island

*Currently in line for conference's Regular Season Champion Auto Bid
 
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I think Mike Kemp said they approached the NCAA about a certain # of slots per conference and the NCAA shot that "multiple auto bid" approach down. They are still going to use RPI or whatever to evaluate teams within a conference because of the unbalanced schedules and not all teams playing same number of games etc. At the same time the committee will be using eye test and whether they want to admit it or not "historical evidence" to select the at large field.

They also approached Pittsburgh about hosting the entire 16 team tournament there but that was deemed not to be feasible so that is why they are sticking with 4 regional format provided local authorities allow it. At this point with people getting vaccinated and cases dropping in a lot of places, I would think it's a go. As far as I know an official replacement for Manchester has not been named but I thought they said that was being finalized.

They also said the NCAA told them to try and limit travel even more than usual but with one of the regionals being in Loveland with Denver not being in contention, that is going to be interesting. As things stand now, you would think the best options for Loveland are teams like Minnesota, Wisconsin, St. Cloud, Duluth, Minnesota State. So do you flood the Loveland and Fargo regionals with those teams or does the fact everyone would be flying to Loveland anyway change that approach?
 
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I think Mike Kemp said they approached the NCAA about a certain # of slots per conference and the NCAA shot that "multiple auto bid" approach down. They are still going to use RPI or whatever to evaluate teams within a conference because of the unbalanced schedules and not all teams playing same number of games etc. At the same time the committee will be using eye test and whether they want to admit it or not "historical evidence" to select the at large field.

Yeah, I heard that as well about the multiple auto bids per conference. That being said, I have to imagine that de facto the Modified CC Rule will work, as the Regular Season Champions in the B1G, Hockey East, NCHC, and WCHA will almost certainly get in (likely because the likely winners are all Top-5 or -6 teams at the moment). I think Quinnipiac is likely a lock at this point as well, so really it would be applicable to the ECAC as well. Now, the "downside" to not having multiple auto bids/adopting the Modified CC Rule is if the Regular Season Champion also wins the Conference Tournament title, then your conference could potentially be limited a spot. For example, if Minnesota State captures both the regular season and tournament titles, it could mean a team like Bemidji State or Bowling Green fails to get the nod.

As for using PWR/RPI/KRACH to evaluate teams within a conference, it makes sense. However, as you noted, then they will have to use some sort of historical evidence to pick teams. For example, AIC is currently ranked 7th in PWR, while Minnesota Duluth is ranked 21st. Fair or not, there is no way that the Yellowjackets get picked over the Bulldogs for an at-large spot. We all have to accept that there will be a lot of subjectivity in this year's selection. What I like about using the Modified CC Rule is instead of using that subjectivity to dole out 10 at-large bids, it would only be used for 6 at-large spots. Personally, I would be okay with the Modified CC Rule + 1 at-large per conference based on RPI/KRACH.

JD said:
They also approached Pittsburgh about hosting the entire 16 team tournament there but that was deemed not to be feasible so that is why they are sticking with 4 regional format provided local authorities allow it. At this point with people getting vaccinated and cases dropping in a lot of places, I would think it's a go. As far as I know an official replacement for Manchester has not been named but I thought they said that was being finalized.

Yeah, I thought it was supposed to get announced this past week (or at least that is how it sounded from the interview).

JD said:
They also said the NCAA told them to try and limit travel even more than usual but with one of the regionals being in Loveland with Denver not being in contention, that is going to be interesting. As things stand now, you would think the best options for Loveland are teams like Minnesota, Wisconsin, St. Cloud, Duluth, Minnesota State. So do you flood the Loveland and Fargo regionals with those teams or does the fact everyone would be flying to Loveland anyway change that approach?

I have to imagine they will use some form of the "a flight is a flight" logic. It appears that North Dakota, Minnesota, Minnesota State, Wisconsin, St. Cloud State, and one of Minnesota Duluth, Omaha, or Bemidji State are likely to make the NCAA Tournament. They are all roughly within driving distance of Fargo, and while North Dakota might wind up being the #1 overall seed and would normally get "protected," I think we will see that playing out a lot different this year. I would guess that 3-4 of those 6-7 teams above would get placed in Fargo, and they would shift around seeding to make it work.

As for Loveland, it doesn't look promising for any of the "local" teams. I'm guessing we wind up with the leftovers from the Fargo Regional teams noted above, along with a Michigan, Michigan Tech, Bowling Green, and/or LSSU...who likely would all be flights if they make the tournament (obviously, depending on the location of the 4th regional). It looks like most of the potential eastern teams that make it will almost certainly be within rough driving distance of the regionals, so I would guess that all the eastern teams that make it will be out east. Using the CHN Power 16 (the teams, not necessarily the rankings) from this last week as an example, I would guess at the regionals looking something like this:

Fargo:
1. North Dakota v. 4. Bowling Green
2. Minnesota State v. 3. St. Cloud State

Three teams within driving distance, and avoids intra-conference matchups.

Loveland:
1. Minnesota v. 4. Nebraska Omaha
2. Michigan v. 3. Minnesota Duluth

All are flights, and avoids intra-conference matchups.

TBD East Regional (assuming somewhere near Boston):
1. Boston College v. 4. AIC
2. Boston University v. 3. Clarkson

All within driving distance.

Bridgeport:
1. Wisconsin v. 4. Connecticut
2. Quinnipiac v. 3. Massachusetts

Three teams within driving distance, and Wisconsin is a flight anywhere but Fargo, which was full.

I don't like it, but I think this is fairly close to the logic they would employ, which is essentially: (1) No intra-conference matchups; (2) get teams to regionals as close as possible; and (3) keep teams as close as possible to their true seeding, but able to flex around as necessary.
 
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