More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is...

[darker98]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Just as a practical matter, even if the NCAA wanted to go back to home series (which they won't because they'd get less money out of the bidding personally, regardless of what profit or loss is made by everyone else) they aren't going to consider it until North Dakota bends on their name. It creates a massive unnecessary headache if you're awarding home ice to higher seeds.

I don't see what our name has to do with it. Higher seeds get home games period. If UND is a higher seed they go on the road.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Mainly, I have 2 points:
1) Any ranking system leaves teams very closely bunched. This is inarguable.

2) And, this is arguable. Because of 1 - Neutral sites are the way it has to be.
3) Also, arguable. It may be best to give the committee more leeway in creating the bracket; although the 16 teams in the field need to be from what Scooby calls "Simple Math" in one way or another.

I'm with you on 1 and 2. As for 3, I kind of like the fact that Simple Math (c) ends up ruling the realm regarding the seeding. I get the fact that PWR and RPI aren't perfect, but if it's good enough to select at-large bids, then it's good enough to seed, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[CLS]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

There's not much of one.

Actually both of your supposed "examples" are wrong, because I said you do top 6 in the west and top 6 in the east. BU wouldn't be playing in Minnesota, and Cornell wouldn't be playing in North Dakota. I specifically added that so that not only do you get the guaranteed home crowd, but there's also a good chance the away team will also be within driving distance.

No, they’re not wrong. I said Under a 1 vs. 16 system. Your examples used the regionals that were just concluded, as did mine. Your point was “With the home ice model, there’s a very clear sense that you could have improved your position in the tournament by winning more games.” That’s your statement and it says nothing about east and west. It’s true in theory, but not always true in practice.

What it would have meant for your 12 team tournament, no one can tell. I don’t recall your saying anything about the autobid (and if you did, I apologize for not having gone back to find it), and if you did include autobids, would you have put Air Force in the east or the west? Put them in the west and you bump Minnesota (a Frozen Four team, and could you imagine the uproar if Minnesota got bumped by an autobid from the AHA?) ; put them in the east and you bump Cornell (and could you imagine the uproar if Cornell got bumped from the “eastern” playoffs by a team from Colorado?).

You really think the competitive difference between BU playing @UMN and @UMD due to differing rink size is remotely comparable to the competitive difference between BU playing @UMN and playing UMD in Worcester?

No I don’t. I was responding to your point about the home ice model. I was comparing BU traveling to Duluth vs. BU traveling to St. Paul, which would have been the case with the home ice model. Are you saying that BU would have a very clear sense that they had improved their position in the tournament by winning more games?

 

[jk]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

At the risk of having an opinion contrary to an inarguable statement, I'd have teams host playoff series at home. I'd rather have my team play on the road in a hostile full house than in a sterile, boring arena. If they were to rise to the challenge and win, all the better. UND went out and beat a ridiculous RPI team in 1984 when Jon Casey stood on his head, and part of what made it so memorable was that it occurred on the road.

As for the systems not being precise enough, they're not precise enough for anything, so they may as well be considered precise enough for everything. #17 feels worse about not being #16 than #9 feels about not being #8.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

#17 feels worse about not being #16 than #9 feels about not being #8.

And there's nothing that anyone can do about that. No system will change it, so you might as well choose a system that's based purely on numbers and completely removes human opinion from the equation. The PWR is a lot easier to handle than the way basketball does it or the BCS because you can attribute everyone down to whether or not you should have won a few more games and nothing else.

 

[Numbers]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

And there's nothing that anyone can do about that. No system will change it, so you might as well choose a system that's based purely on numbers and completely removes human opinion from the equation. The PWR is a lot easier to handle than the way basketball does it or the BCS because you can attribute everyone down to whether or not you should have won a few more games and nothing else.

So, Dayton, are you in favor of neutral sites or on-campus (home of higher seed)?

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

So, Dayton, are you in favor of neutral sites or on-campus (home of higher seed)?

Neutral. If only because of the impracticalities of actually expecting to hold 58 arenas open seven months ahead of time without any added cost or headaches for the NCAA.

 

[kdilks]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

30 minutes most time of day (Google's times reflect no other cars on the road). Good luck with that 10 mn drive from either campus at 3pm.

Now can you pls go pick at secondary details in someone elses post?

Is it better if I say 7.7 miles between Mariucci and Xcel? Which coincidentally is the exact same distance between Magness and the Pepsi Center in Denver.

Also, evening rush hour is only from 3:30-6:30. And even then, inbound traffic on 35W and 94 between the two cities isn't that terrible.

It's more fun to pick at the secondary details on this one .

 

[bunt_q]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Is it better if I say 7.7 miles between Mariucci and Xcel? Which coincidentally is the exact same distance between Magness and the Pepsi Center in Denver.

Also, evening rush hour is only from 3:30-6:30. And even then, inbound traffic on 35W and 94 between the two cities isn't that terrible.

It's more fun to pick at the secondary details on this one .

Eh, Magness to Pepsi Center is exactly a 15 minute train ride.

Mariucci to Xcel will be closer to 20 minutes, I think, when that train is done in a few years.

 

[Numbers]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Neutral. If only because of the impracticalities of actually expecting to hold 58 arenas open seven months ahead of time without any added cost or headaches for the NCAA.

I would have to make a spreadsheet to keep track of everyone's opinions on this thread. But, I assume that your priorities in all this would be like so:
1) 'Bracket integrity' so as to avoid any arguments about who plays who. In other words, the PWR decides, and everyone knows it, so quit complaining.
2) Neutral sites because the sites can be reserved far enough ahead to avoid scheduling problems (but, not necessarily for the fairness of the tourney.)
3) Attendance and 'atmosphere' which seems to come far down the list in your mind.

Correct? I'm not arguing. Rather, I appreciate trying to understand opinions that differ from my own.

 

[brassbonanza]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

I was at the FF in DC in 2009 and Miami had WAY MORE fans than BU

Nope. You're just confusing the casual/leftover Vermont fans there rooting for the underdog. There were most definitely not more Miami fans there.

And to the guy who posted before that the X is 30 minutes from campus...really? 7 miles? Is that highway REALLY that congested on a Saturday afternoon?

 

[chickod]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Nope. You're just confusing the casual/leftover Vermont fans there rooting for the underdog. There were most definitely not more Miami fans there.

Well, I guess that just affirms my assertion that the BU fans sit on their hands more than most, because it sure didn't sound like it. Also, it seemed to me that the Miami crowd stretched from behind the net around to center ice, where the BU crowd seemed to be confined more to the corner and didn't extend quite as far (but I could be splitting hairs here). The Miami fans were definintely louder (until Bonino scored, that is...)

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

I would have to make a spreadsheet to keep track of everyone's opinions on this thread. But, I assume that your priorities in all this would be like so:
1) 'Bracket integrity' so as to avoid any arguments about who plays who. In other words, the PWR decides, and everyone knows it, so quit complaining.
2) Neutral sites because the sites can be reserved far enough ahead to avoid scheduling problems (but, not necessarily for the fairness of the tourney.)
3) Attendance and 'atmosphere' which seems to come far down the list in your mind.

Correct? I'm not arguing. Rather, I appreciate trying to understand opinions that differ from my own.

Pretty much.

Attendance and atmosphere are incredibly important, but I don't know how to address those without seriously going against the first two points. The committee does a good job of moving teams around for attendance reasons without messing with bracket integrity too much (you'll notice that if you go by PWR or RPI, it rarely is truly a 1 v 16, 2 v 15, etc. set of pairings). In my eyes, atmosphere comes part and parcel with attendance, and there are two parts to the attendance: local and traveling fans. I don't think there's enough of an effort to engage locals to attend these things. I live in Green Bay, and I don't think anyone in town knew about it unless someone like me told them about it. For traveling fans, what more can you do when you have less than a week's notice before fans can get there? Short of moving the weekends around so that there's more time between the tournament selection and the regionals, I'm not sure what you can do about that.

 

[brassbonanza]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Well, I guess that just affirms my assertion that the BU fans sit on their hands more than most, because it sure didn't sound like it. Also, it seemed to me that the Miami crowd stretched from behind the net around to center ice, where the BU crowd seemed to be confined more to the corner and didn't extend quite as far (but I could be splitting hairs here). The Miami fans were definintely louder (until Bonino scored, that is...)

Sorry, again don't agree. Maybe in the lower level since a lot of those tickets went to administrators and higher up people instead of regular season ticket holders and fans, but from the balcony, the students there were quite boisterous. And no, their crowd didn't stretch that far, every team had a corner assigned to them, and no one really had much of a defined presence beyond those corners. Again, the vast majority of casual fans, including the leftover Vermont fans were rooting hard against BU. Look at the highlights, when Miami scores there's a bunch of mopes in Maine jerseys going nuts against the boards. Same thing happened at the Final Four last year, everyone at the title game was rooting for Butler over UConn. But there were most certainly not 50,000 Butler fans there by any means, they were just mostly ****ed off Kentucky fans rooting against UConn.

 

[Rover]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

I don't recall BU fans being outrepresented in DC either. I was surprised how many Vermont fans made the trip, but the BU contingent did its job, mostly because we knew it'd be another 15 years before we got back again! Seriously though, that team was stacked and if they ever were going to win a national championship, that year was it. Hence the good turnout (and relative ease of getting there).

Regarding the regionals, I liked the comment about perfect being the enemy of the good. If the neutral sites are drawing 10,000 fans, why are people complaining? That's not bad IMHO. Also agreed about the need for better promotion of the event.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Its already been stated that the X is a very different arena than its home ice...which makes distance to the U the only remaining 'benefit'. X is maybe 30 minutes away from the U. So what is the line in the sand for 'home ice'? Is it everywhere within an hour and a half? Well with programs like Princeton, that means Tampa will be getting a lot more business. Then the regional system will definitely be a disaster.

I have no problems with the NCAAs 'greedy' stance, because its not the NCAA behind this. Its the Universities and not the NCAA that are the driving the financials. See the numbers:

96 percent of NCAA revenue benefits the membership through distributions or services

The 96 percent figure includes:

• Division I distributions (60 percent)

• Championships (13 percent)

• Programs and national office services (19 percent)

• Other services (such as the Eligibility Center) (4 percent)

To be clear, the 96 percent includes much of the national office’s expenses (including salaries), which are housed in programmatic budgets. The 4 percent that remains is for central services, such as building operations and salaries not related to particular programs.


The NCAA like any other industry organization is doing everything it can to satisfy its members which are really its customers. And universities want this funding (along with alumn donations) to improve their ability to deliver education.

Interesting post, assuming your facts are just that. ( And I'm making that assumption, by the way.)

Going by your numbers, it's easy to see why the NCAA wants to maximize revenue, since there are so many bills to pay... But I'm guessing that the 4% cleared is one heck of a lot of 'scarole just the same.

 

[chickod]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Sorry, again don't agree. Maybe in the lower level since a lot of those tickets went to administrators and higher up people instead of regular season ticket holders and fans, but from the balcony, the students there were quite boisterous.

Well, I have to admit that I was sitting in the balcony ABOVE the BU sections, so I couldn't see directly below us. What I DID have a better view of was the other end (lower bowl and balcony) so it seemed as though there were a lot of Miami fans there. And whetever happened to "conference loyalty?" Does Vermont hate us too (rhetorical question - everyone hates us)?

 

[davyd83]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

At the risk of having an opinion contrary to an inarguable statement, I'd have teams host playoff series at home. I'd rather have my team play on the road in a hostile full house than in a sterile, boring arena. If they were to rise to the challenge and win, all the better. UND went out and beat a ridiculous RPI team in 1984 when Jon Casey stood on his head, and part of what made it so memorable was that it occurred on the road.

As for the systems not being precise enough, they're not precise enough for anything, so they may as well be considered precise enough for everything. #17 feels worse about not being #16 than #9 feels about not being #8.

And Northern Michigan at 16 felt a lot worse about not being 15...