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Moratoriums

Re: Moratoriums

So ,I guess what we are saying is that for a DII school to make a NCAA move for hockey purposes(alone) is that it is impossible to move to DIII now and that when the DIII moratorium is lifted they would have to move all of their sport programs to DIII to be considered.
As for a DII team to move their hockey program up to DI, the moratorium is in place and it would be a difficult and time consuming process if and when the moratorium is lifted?

For a DII team to move DI, the process would only be the standard 5-year reclassification process. It is likely they would have to convince their entire athletics program to move DI, which for some of the school in question would be difficult, especially as it pertains to Basketball. But they would be able to do it and have the ability to offer scholarships.

Of course, if they don't get rid of the single-sport play-up, I'm not 100% on the logistics. Didn't RIT of have 1 season of playing a (mostly) DI schedule and not being eligible for postseason play?
 
Re: Moratoriums

Of course, if they don't get rid of the single-sport play-up, I'm not 100% on the logistics. Didn't RIT of have 1 season of playing a (mostly) DI schedule and not being eligible for postseason play?

They were ineligible for more than one year. I want to say three years. In their first full year of AHA play (which was after the year you mention), they won the regular season title, but could not compete in the playoffs, because they were not NCAA playoff eligible. Thus, the conference didn't want to take a chance that a team ineligible for the NCAAs takes the automatic qualifier (and no, you don't get to have the AQ move down to the next eligible team).
 
Re: Moratoriums

It was a two-year transition. The first year was a non-league, mostly D-I schedule and the second year was a full D-I and AHA schedule, but they were ineligible for the post-season.
 
Re: Moratoriums

They were ineligible for more than one year. I want to say three years. In their first full year of AHA play (which was after the year you mention), they won the regular season title, but could not compete in the playoffs, because they were not NCAA playoff eligible. Thus, the conference didn't want to take a chance that a team ineligible for the NCAAs takes the automatic qualifier (and no, you don't get to have the AQ move down to the next eligible team).

It was a two-year transition. The first year was a non-league, mostly D-I schedule and the second year was a full D-I and AHA schedule, but they were ineligible for the post-season.

Okay. I wasn't sure, but I knew that it certainly wasn't a 5-year transition.
 
Re: Moratoriums

yes they may be...but how well are any of those programs? Nuff said. RIT doesn't give any out, we know that, but they give out large amounts of Fin Aid that State schools can not do....

To be fair, state school students don't *need* as much financial aid. Have you seen RIT's tuition lately? =)


Powers &8^]
 
Re: Moratoriums

If that formally gets passed, then a hockey team wishing to jump up to DI would need to convince their entire athletic department to enter than 13-year DI reclassification process mentioned above... quite the tall order.

Seems like craziness to me. 12 D-III schools play up to D-I. Twelve. Is it really a horrible epidemic that needs to be nipped in the bud?


Powers &8^]
 
Re: Moratoriums

Seems like craziness to me. 12 D-III schools play up to D-I. Twelve. Is it really a horrible epidemic that needs to be nipped in the bud?


Powers &8^]

But it needs to be nipped in the bud - what if one of those schools were to actually win a DI championship - why that would be awful. Those titles are the birthright of the megaschools - Minnesota, Wisconsin, BU, BC, etc. For a DIII school to win would totally destroy the credibility of the invincibility of the megaprograms.
 
Re: Moratoriums

Seems like craziness to me. 12 D-III schools play up to D-I. Twelve. Is it really a horrible epidemic that needs to be nipped in the bud?


Powers &8^]
There are only 6 D-III schools playing ice hockey @ Division I
Clarkson $
St. Lawrence $
RPI $
Union
RIT
Colorado College $

The only notable exceptions in other sports is lacrosse where
Johns Hopkins $
Hobart $
play up.

$ = can offer athletic scholarships

However, Prof is right. Heaven forbid a non D-I school wins the national title. That would be just plain wrong for only the mighty shall prevail......
Bullthit!
 
Re: Moratoriums

There are only 6 D-III schools playing ice hockey @ Division I
Clarkson $
St. Lawrence $
RPI $
Union
RIT
Colorado College $

The only notable exceptions in other sports is lacrosse where
Johns Hopkins $
Hobart $
play up.

$ = can offer athletic scholarships

I should know this, but how many are playing up if you include the DII schools?


However, Prof is right. Heaven forbid a non D-I school wins the national title. That would be just plain wrong for only the mighty shall prevail......
Bullthit!

I do have some sympathy for what you guys are getting at, but I don't remember much outcry when DU scored a few titles not so long ago...
 
Re: Moratoriums

I should know this, but how many are playing up if you include the DII schools?
Crap -- I did this a while back. I think you end up with 10 west and 11 east (counting NE10) if memory serves me correctly. D-I would fall below the required number for a championship, but D-II wouldn't be able to hold one, either. Which would leave D-III as the only division holding an ice hockey championship. :D

I do have some sympathy for what you guys are getting at, but I don't remember much outcry when DU scored a few titles not so long ago...
When DU did the double, I think they were D-1 or in transition to D-I.
 
Re: Moratoriums

There are only 6 D-III schools playing ice hockey @ Division I

Hobart can offer scholies? They're not one of the seven (previously eight) grandfathered schools, AFAIK.

Anyway, I was counting all schools, not just hockey schools, to emphasize that this proposed rule is trying to fix something that only 12 D-III schools are even using. The other grandfathered schools are Hartwick (men's soccer, women's water polo) and Rutgers-Newark (men's volleyball) (SUNY Oneonta dropped men's soccer to D-III and so is no longer grandfathered). Franklin & Marshall (men's wrestling), and Lawrence (fencing) are the two other non-grandfathered D-III schools playing up.


Powers &8^]
 
Re: Moratoriums

But it needs to be nipped in the bud - what if one of those schools were to actually win a DI championship - why that would be awful. Those titles are the birthright of the megaschools - Minnesota, Wisconsin, BU, BC, etc. For a DIII school to win would totally destroy the credibility of the invincibility of the megaprograms.

I have a couple points of contention with this. And since I can't sleep right now anyways, I might as well share them.

The first is: This isn't news. Those in power in anything (politics, sports, radio station clusters in triple-digit market numbers...) want to keep that power. The Yankees aren't lining up to institute a salary cap in baseball and the Cowboys don't want to increase revenue sharing in football. Acting surprised by this prevents any of the real issues from being discussed.

Second: I think your point about the reaction to a smaller school winning a championship is flat out wrong. If TCU had snuck into the BCS championship this year (they were arguably one loss away) and won the thing, you would have seen exactly the same level of complaints as you see any other year. If George Mason had won the men's basketball tournament in 2006 you think there would have been a contingent of people shouting "They're not real champions!" from the rooftops?

Third: It could be argued allowing a single sport at a D3 institution could actually be unfair - to the Division I teams. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the 12 teams playing up to DI are all private schools. Which means that while they may not have the enrollment of more prominent schools (though this could also be questioned - RIT enrollment in 2008: 16,450. Duke enrollment 2009: 13,662), these schools still have a large amount of the pie they can devote to athletics and are not strongly beholden to state/federal government aid fluctuations.

However, these teams only have to fund one athletic team at the DI level. So whereas Duke is funding baseball, men's and women's basketball, cross country, fencing, field hockey, football, men's and women's lacrosse and golf, rowing, men's and women's soccer and tennis, swimming and diving, track and field, volleyball and wrestling at a Division I level, RIT is only funding hockey at a Division I level and gets to fund all their other sports at a Division III level. With the cost of D3 teams being far, far less than D1 teams, RIT could easily be competitive with other teams in just one sport and perhaps even outspend some of the so-called "big boys" because they only have to devote "big boy" money to one program in their athletic budget. Let's say you're Boston College and sending your women's swimming team to North Carolina for the ACC championships because the best way to stay one of the "big boys" was for you to join a conference where everybody else is 1,500 miles away and you look at RIT making the hockey Frozen Four and wonder "why the heck do they get to do that and only have to send their women's swimming team to freaking Syracuse for their conference championship?" Suddenly you can actually make an argument for the "little guys" having an advantage.

I strongly recommend this book for anybody interested in the hypocrisy of collegiate athletics. It's about football, I know, which is about one step above "bouncey ball" around here, but it is a delightfully sarcastic look at the dysfunctional world of college football and will actually quite possibly make you look around the our little corner of the world and go "maybe we don't have it that bad."

But probably not.
 
Re: Moratoriums

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the 12 teams playing up to DI are all private schools.

Eleven are. Rutgers-Newark is public. SUNY Oneonta is public, too, but they're no longer grandfathered.

Which means that while they may not have the enrollment of more prominent schools (though this could also be questioned - RIT enrollment in 2008: 16,450. Duke enrollment 2009: 13,662)

RIT is an outlier. It has by far the largest undergraduate enrollment of any of the 12 D-III play-ups. Only Johns Hopkins beats RIT in total enrollment, but they're 4/5 grad students. The vast majority of play-ups are small schools.


Powers &8^]
 
Re: Moratoriums

Hobart can offer scholies? They're not one of the seven (previously eight) grandfathered schools, AFAIK.

Anyway, I was counting all schools, not just hockey schools, to emphasize that this proposed rule is trying to fix something that only 12 D-III schools are even using. The other grandfathered schools are Hartwick (men's soccer, women's water polo) and Rutgers-Newark (men's volleyball) (SUNY Oneonta dropped men's soccer to D-III and so is no longer grandfathered). Franklin & Marshall (men's wrestling), and Lawrence (fencing) are the two other non-grandfathered D-III schools playing up.


Powers &8^]

Hobart lacrosse was grandfathered in (I'm almost positive), but I think they choose not to offer scholarships.

Hartwick dropped their soccer program to D-III before Oneonta did. [EDIT -- Well, now I'm confused, because they are clearly still a D-I program when I checked their website. I thought they made a big deal about dropping their program down right after the vote, because they didn't want to have their status change be an issue during the debate.]

I thought Water Polo only had one championship, so everyone technically plays D-I in that sport.
 
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Re: Moratoriums

Eleven are. Rutgers-Newark is public. SUNY Oneonta is public, too, but they're no longer grandfathered.

I don't think Oneonta ever offered scholarships when they were D-I. I'll have to check with my brother who initially went to Oneonta to play soccer. I know he didn't get any scholarships whatsoever. But then, he wasn't recruited either.
 
Re: Moratoriums

Hobart lacrosse was grandfathered in (I'm almost positive), but I think they choose not to offer scholarships.

If Hobart lacrosse never gave scholarships out when they went D-I, then they would not be grandfathered in even if their program existed before the vote. So, LTPowers would be correct.
 
Re: Moratoriums

If Hobart lacrosse never gave scholarships out when they went D-I, then they would not be grandfathered in even if their program existed before the vote. So, LTPowers would be correct.

Apropos of nothing: is LTPowers an Army LT (entry level management :) ) or Navy LT (middle manager :) ) :confused:
 
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