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Minnesota Gophers 2018-2019

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Re: Minnesota Gophers 2018-2019

You're doing the same thing that TTT did with his GRANT ratings: you make this statement but you don't provide any support for why this would be true. Grant expects me to believe that a team that wins 2-1 is superior to one that wins 5-3 or 7-4. If you want to tell me that this explanation is based on math or logic, then you have to support your ratio theory, not just throw it out there as if it is a given.

This is one of the earliest and most basic findings of the entire sports analytics process. It underlies the Pythagorean method that Bill James developed in the early 1980s, though Allan Roth was probably doing some of the same things when he worked for Branch Rickey three decades earlier. It's been refined substantially since then, though the math has gotten more complicated with the dynamic non-linear models that have supplanted the original James formula.

There are two basic reasons why a goal ratio (non-linear) model is a better estimator than a goal differential (linear) model. The first is that, if you just compute the correlation between the estimator and winning percentage, you get a better R^2 and lower residuals with a ratio. The differences aren't huge, with an R^2 greater than .9 for even for the linear methods, but they are significant. The second reason is that linear models break down badly at the extremes. If a team has a goal differential greater than half of the average number of goals scored per team (with some variation on the exact value depending upon the specifics of the model), a goal differential model is going to predict that it wins more than 100% of its games. In practice, goal differential works almost as well as goal ratio if the team you're looking at has a winning percentage of between .300 and .700. So, it works fine for major league baseball. For women's college hockey, that's a big problem; note that the two teams were specifically looking at have winning percentages close to .900.

Beyond that, it ought to be obvious just from my original post that goal differential isn't to be trusted in this case. If that's what you go with, then you need to believe that Minnesota is not only better than Wisconsin this year, but a lot better. I don't think that matches the world as we've observed it.

Some references:

This uses soccer, but explains some of the concepts: https://thetopflight.com/2014/05/20/understanding-relationship-between-goals-points/

This shows more of the math, and is hockey related: https://www.hockeyanalytics.com/Research_files/Win_Probabilities.pdf

Edit: When I say, "The differences aren't huge, with an R^2 greater than .9 for even for the linear methods, but they are significant," I should emphasize that the correlation is that high in the context of the NHL or MLB, where goal differentials and winning percentages cluster much more in the middle zone where a linear model is more robust. There is every reason to think that the R^2 would be much lower if you used goal differential to look at a league, like Division I women's hockey, with more variance in the data.
 
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Re: Minnesota Gophers 2018-2019

... then you need to believe that Minnesota is not only better than Wisconsin this year, but a lot better.
That is the foundation on which I base all of my thinking. If you don't share that belief, then I have no idea why you're even here. :confused:
 
Re: Minnesota Gophers 2018-2019

This is one of the earliest and most basic findings of the entire sports analytics process. It underlies the Pythagorean method that Bill James developed in the early 1980s, though Allan Roth was probably doing some of the same things when he worked for Branch Rickey three decades earlier. It's been refined substantially since then, though the math has gotten more complicated with the dynamic non-linear models that have supplanted the original James formula.

There are two basic reasons why a goal ratio (non-linear) model is a better estimator than a goal differential (linear) model. The first is that, if you just compute the correlation between the estimator and winning percentage, you get a better R^2 and lower residuals with a ratio. The differences aren't huge, with an R^2 greater than .9 for even for the linear methods, but they are significant. The second reason is that linear models break down badly at the extremes. If a team has a goal differential greater than half of the average number of goals scored per team (with some variation on the exact value depending upon the specifics of the model), a goal differential model is going to predict that it wins more than 100% of its games. In practice, goal differential works almost as well as goal ratio if the team you're looking at has a winning percentage of between .300 and .700. So, it works fine for major league baseball. For women's college hockey, that's a big problem; note that the two teams were specifically looking at have winning percentages close to .900.

Beyond that, it ought to be obvious just from my original post that goal differential isn't to be trusted in this case. If that's what you go with, then you need to believe that Minnesota is not only better than Wisconsin this year, but a lot better. I don't think that matches the world as we've observed it.

Some references:

This uses soccer, but explains some of the concepts: https://thetopflight.com/2014/05/20/understanding-relationship-between-goals-points/

This shows more of the math, and is hockey related: https://www.hockeyanalytics.com/Research_files/Win_Probabilities.pdf

Edit: When I say, "The differences aren't huge, with an R^2 greater than .9 for even for the linear methods, but they are significant," I should emphasize that the correlation is that high in the context of the NHL or MLB, where goal differentials and winning percentages cluster much more in the middle zone where a linear model is more robust. There is every reason to think that the R^2 would be much lower if you used goal differential to look at a league, like Division I women's hockey, with more variance in the data.

The math checks out.
 
Re: Minnesota Gophers 2018-2019

Empiricism can lead to disappointing conclusions.
Oh I can rationalize (such as 7 > 4, and that's a case where I will strongly defend that the differential is more important than the ratio). ;)
 
Re: Minnesota Gophers 2018-2019

That is the foundation on which I base all of my thinking. If you don't share that belief, then I have no idea why you're even here. :confused:

And the Gophers always have been better than the Badgers. The 2006 championship game was just an anomaly! After all the Gophers did defeat the #1 team in the country the game before.
 
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Re: Minnesota Gophers 2018-2019

I love this.

As seriously as we all take this stuff, Instagram this morning 'suggested' to me a photo posted by UW's Britta Curl of her missing an open half-net against Sydney Scobee from earlier this season. And in the comments, Curl and Mekenzie Steffen and Scobee and others go back and forth good-naturedly jabbing each other while at the same time self deprecating themselves.

Kids, having fun, playing a game.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BsyJs9VhtC9/

(Cross posted to the UW thread.)

For the record I don't enjoy the sax version of the National Anthem. He's awesome, it's just not my style.
 
Re: Minnesota Gophers 2018-2019

For the record I don't enjoy the sax version of the National Anthem. He's awesome, it's just not my style.

Substitute "the electric guitar version" in the above and you would have my exact comment at the Gopher game Saturday. My wife wondered if we were having a Woodstock flashback before the game, without the LSD of course.
 
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Re: Minnesota Gophers 2018-2019

Meh...the plus minus card? On a team with a +68 goal differential? You should go get some selective statistic pointers from EF1. That poster is a lot better at it than you. ;)

I was going to say you must be relatively new here but I know you are not.

In the last couple years the WCHA website has listed the number of goals a player has been on the ice for (+) and the number of times the have been on the ice when a goal has been scored against them(-). Prior to that they only reported the +/- and I kept track of it (the goals for and against) and reported it as a ratio (the Pokechecker Ratio). So you are preaching to the choir.

If I am reading Eeyore’s blathering correctly, we both agree that the ratio is a more accurate representation of a player’s effectiveness than the +/-, but still is not all that accurate.

A common theme seems to be that the blueliners are making bad decisions. I give you that the two decisions highlighted here in this thread before Christamas were bad decisions, however:
1) Those decisions have not been repeated.
2) Those decisions did not directly lead to a goal, or decide the game
3) It is doubtful such a bad decision needed the coaches to explain it, let alone fans on the internet. I'm sure the players realized as soon as they did it that it was a bad choice.

Consequently I place those two in the STDM file (schidt that doesn’t matter)

If they are continually making bad decisions it also appears the coaches are also failing, perhaps you should be more specific and explain what decisions you are seeing that need improvement, you’ll be helping everyone out.
 
Re: Minnesota Gophers 2018-2019

There's a third problem, namely that any stat based around goals scored suffers from goals being low probability events, but that's more technical than I really want to try to explain right now.

given your failing to recognize the validity of gathered data in the goalie stat discussion, for a second there I thought we were going to be spared another of your faulty screeds, but then I noticed you went on to blather anyway ....

The ratio of goals scored to goals allowed is a much more useful stat than is the difference between goals scored and goals allowed. In this case, Wisconsin has scored 68 non-power play goals and allowed 21; that gives us a ratio of 3.24 and a differential of 47. Minnesota has scored 97 and allowed 33, for a ratio of 2.94 and a differential of 64. Wisconsin has been about 10% better than Minnesota in terms of net goal production, but plus/minus is going to show the average Gopher to be about 27% better than the average Badger. That's a large enough difference that it makes any comparisons between the two teams meaningless;

if it is still possible to search back a few years you will find that when I explained the Ratio you will notice that I explained it really wasn't useful for comparing players across teams, in fact it really isn't all that useful for comparing across a team unless you are very familiar with the team and how the players are being used

a few posts back you said "the lack of scoring starts at the back end"
this implies that successful scoring starts at the back end, IOW, rather than attribute a players high +/- to good fortune of being on the ice with a high scoring line rather than a low scoring one, the blueliner does have an effect on the productivity of the line

you don't seem to have a consistent argument
 
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Re: Minnesota Gophers 2018-2019

given your failing to recognize the validity of gathered data in the goalie stat discussion . . .

You had no idea what you were talking about then, and you haven't gotten any closer.

if it is still possible to search back a few years you will find that when I explained the Ratio you will notice that I explained it really wasn't useful for comparing players across teams, in fact it really isn't all that useful for comparing across a team unless you are very familiar with the team and how the players are being used

This isn't really true. Ratio data can be very useful for comparing players across teams. Unfortunately, the full data set necessary to do this isn't publicly available for women's college hockey. I don't know whether or not it is privately available, though I do know that there are proprietary statistical packages that programs can buy that contain lots of data that is not otherwise accessible.

At the end of the day, though, one wonders why anyone should take you even vaguely seriously, given that you were perfectly content to base your argument on plus/minus until it was pointed out that it isn't useful, and only then started acting like you knew that already. You're a pathetic combination of ignorance and bluster.
 
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Re: Minnesota Gophers 2018-2019

At the end of the day, though, one wonders why anyone should take you even vaguely seriously, given that you were perfectly content to base your argument on plus/minus until it was pointed out that it isn't useful, and only then started acting like you knew that already. You're a pathetic combination of ignorance and bluster.

I try to give folks on here the benefit of the doubt since there are so few that participate in the forum. PC does put an awful lot of strain on that benefit of the doubt at times. ;)
 
Re: Minnesota Gophers 2018-2019

If they are continually making bad decisions it also appears the coaches are also failing, perhaps you should be more specific and explain what decisions you are seeing that need improvement, you’ll be helping everyone out.

Please...They are not "continually making bad decisions"...

I'm pretty such I won't be helping anyone out with a diatribe about the supposed shortcomings of Gopher defensemen.
 
Re: Minnesota Gophers 2018-2019

Please...They are not "continually making bad decisions"...
If they were "continually making bad decisions" there is no way they'd be the No. 2 ranked team in the nation. Personally I think the D-core has made great strides this season. Anytime you hold No. 1 to three goals in two games, mission accomplished.
 
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