Married? Again?

[Handyman]

Re: Married? Again?

Disagreeing is not sitting in judgement. If I tell someone they are doing something wrong, I am making a judgement call, but am I sitting in judgement? Some folks (well many) are uncomfortable and defensive when somebody tells them that they believe that they are doing something wrong. Some responses are nuanced, some are subtle, some are insulting, and some provide an Academy Award (tm) winning performance.

If caught you cheating on an exam and called you out on it, your responses could be:
(a) Let he who is without sin cast the first stone
(b) I need the grade
(c) F you and what are you going to do about it
(d) HE INSULTED ME! I AM OFFENDED!! I AM GOING TO SUE!! SEXUAL HARASSMENT!!!

Nice straw man...never said that. People disagree with my feelings all the time. Bob has had the "holier than thou" schtick for years and just because he plays coy now doesnt erase that. Look back over this topic alone he basically thinks anyone who agrees with same sex marriage is part of the downfall of our society. He has talked about how morals are eroding a million times and how allowing gay couples is proof of that. It is one thing to say you dont like gay marriage, it is another to use it as proof that liberals are destroying god and society is falling apart. Guess where Bob falls on that spectrum...

He must be smiling now though up on his cross...Bob always did like playing the victim

Not to mention the irony of a guy who any time someone disagrees with him he calls them intolerant or just uses the old "you obviously dont want to have a civilized conversation so I am out" meme crying because he feels persecuted is just too rich.

 

[XYZ]

Re: Married? Again?

That is only when Old Pio calls me a Nazi or a KKK member (or when someone talks about the War on Christmas)

It isnt like Bob hasnt sat in judgement of others around here les, believe me his feelings on these subjects are quite well known.

Assuming the above is credible, which is quite the canyonesque leap, perhaps I'd suggest that you stop nailing yourself to your holocaust.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Married? Again?

Assuming the above is credible, which is quite the canyonesque leap, perhaps I'd suggest that you stop nailing yourself to your holocaust.

Wow...now THAT is how one turns a phrase

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Married? Again?

Nice straw man...never said that. People disagree with my feelings all the time. Bob has had the "holier than thou" schtick for years and just because he plays coy now doesnt erase that. Look back over this topic alone he basically thinks anyone who agrees with same sex marriage is part of the downfall of our society. He has talked about how morals are eroding a million times and how allowing gay couples is proof of that. It is one thing to say you dont like gay marriage, it is another to use it as proof that liberals are destroying god and society is falling apart. Guess where Bob falls on that spectrum...

He must be smiling now though up on his cross...Bob always did like playing the victim

Not to mention the irony of a guy who any time someone disagrees with him he calls them intolerant or just uses the old "you obviously dont want to have a civilized conversation so I am out" meme crying because he feels persecuted is just too rich.

liberals are destroying god? That's over the top ever by your ridiculous posting standards. It really doesn't work well to flame people over the top and then try to sound like you're reasonable the next moment. If someday you grasp the difference between flaming and trolling and having a decent discussion, let me know. It's obviously far beyond your comprehension.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Married? Again?

Bob has had the "holier than thou" schtick for years and just because he plays coy now doesnt erase that. Look back over this topic alone he basically thinks anyone who agrees with same sex marriage is part of the downfall of our society.


Not to mention the irony of a guy who any time someone disagrees with him he calls them intolerant or just uses the old "you obviously dont want to have a civilized conversation so I am out" meme crying because he feels persecuted is just too rich.

I have disagreed with Bob, and still do, on both the gay marriage debate and immigration issues. I don't ever recall him suggesting that I was the downfall of our society, of being accused of intolerance or told that he doesn't feel he can have a civilized debate with me.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Married? Again?

I have disagreed with Bob, and still do, on both the gay marriage debate and immigration issues. I don't ever recall him suggesting that I was the downfall of our society, of being accused of intolerance or told that he doesn't feel he can have a civilized debate with me.

Agreed. I've appreciated our interactions over the years, even if we don't tend to agree on things.

Really though, we all know that it's only Handy that's the downfall of society.

 

[unofan]

I have disagreed with Bob, and still do, on both the gay marriage debate and immigration issues. I don't ever recall him suggesting that I was the downfall of our society, of being accused of intolerance or told that he doesn't feel he can have a civilized debate with me.

I think it's mainly because you tend not to press him on certain comments. What brings out the martyr in Bob is asking him to defend the imposition of his beliefs on society as a whole. We all recognize that his beliefs stem from his particular version of semi-evangelical Christianity. What we'd like him to explain is why those beliefs should apply to everyone else beyond his own church. Rather than answer that question, he then says some variation of we're persecuting him and evades the question.

And don't bring up his seeming infatuation with Jan Brewer. That's what got me on his blacklist.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Married? Again?

I think it's mainly because you tend not to press him on certain comments. What brings out the martyr in Bob is asking him to defend the imposition of his beliefs on society as a whole. We all recognize that his beliefs stem from his particular version of semi-evangelical Christianity. What we'd like him to explain is why those beliefs should apply to everyone else beyond his own church. Rather than answer that question, he then says some variation of we're persecuting him and evades the question.

And don't bring up his seeming infatuation with Jan Brewer. That's what got me on his blacklist.

I don't "press him", as you say, because I think I understand what he is saying. There are certain judeo-christian values that strongly benefit society, and government should adopt policies/laws that promote those values, or at least don't promote the opposite. That like liberals, Bob thinks that government policies can in some instances be a tool for doing good in the world, while the wrong policies bring harm, even if they seem to treat everyone "equally."

I disagree with him. If each religion wants to define marriage under it's own dictates, fine with me. I don't have to join their church. I just think the government shouldn't be in that business at all, and candidly the whole idea of tying employment benefits, social security, insurance, probate or other issues to who you choose to "marry" is ludicrous in my eyes. Government shouldn't be in the marriage business at all.

You want me to press him, like everyone else, by telling him he's wrong, or to explain himself. He's done that. For the benefit of a stronger, more stable society, not everyone gets to do want they want to. He and I just disagree on this issue with respect to gay marriage.

I just choose not to refer to him as a martyr, right wing evangelical, intolerant extremist, religious nut or any other derogatory term, and then mock him for refusing to participate.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Married? Again?

I know why Bob feels the way he does, I dont fault him for it either. I think the idea is backwards but he has every right to think what he likes. Personally I think if you cant make the argument without invoking God though you have no argument. That is the ecumenical version of "because I said so"

And if you havent seen Bob say stuff like that you havent paid attention. I have had him blocked for over a year and I have seen it still. It is usually worded something like "And this is further proof that morals in this country are going by the wayside." Then he mentions "Traditional Values" and so on. (I believe the last time might have been around when the Boy Scouts allowed gay scouts and the ensuing discussions) He attempts to hide behind the veil of "The Good Ole Days" like that was some sort of panacea and avoids buzzwords to try and seem rational. Then, as soon as anyone disagrees he starts insulting their argument (not arguing against it, just insulting their method) then he accuses them of "moving goalposts" or some such nonsense all without actually discussing anything. Usually this leads to them continuing to argue and then Bob walking away because "No one around here wants to have a real substantive discussion" which seems to mean "No one wants to agree with me so they are wrong and I am out of here!". Rinse, repeat every time an issue like this comes up.

A few years back Bob was much more enjoyable to talk to. Hell he and I have had many a good discussion on here. Right about the time the borders got bad and things down there turned his attitude (on here) seemed to change. Now it is very possible some of the posters here (like Rover and Foxton, who poke the bear quite a bit) soured him but no matter, nowadays he sounds more like an old man, longing for the 1950s when everything was glorious and gays were non-existent.

Edit: anywhoooooo back to discussing Same Sex Marriage

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Married? Again?

Extraordinary interview with Pope Francis here (it's quite long):


http://www.americamagazine.org/pope-interview

"The church sometimes has locked itself up in small things, in small-minded rules. The most important thing is the first proclamation: Jesus Christ has saved you. And the ministers of the church must be ministers of mercy above all....In pastoral ministry we must accompany people, and we must heal their wounds."

[The interviewer] mention to Pope Francis that there are Christians who live in situations that are irregular for the church or in complex situations that represent open wounds.... the divorced and remarried, same-sex couples and other difficult situations.

“We need to proclaim the Gospel on every street corner,” the pope says, “preaching the good news of the kingdom and healing, even with our preaching, every kind of disease and wound....During the return flight from Rio de Janeiro I said that if a homosexual person is of good will and is in search of God, I am no one to judge."

“A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality. I replied with another question: ‘Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?’ We must always consider the person. Here we enter into the mystery of the human being. In life, God accompanies persons, and we must accompany them, starting from their situation. It is necessary to accompany them with mercy."

"I also consider the situation of a woman with a failed marriage in her past and who also had an abortion. Then this woman remarries, and she is now happy and has five children. That abortion in her past weighs heavily on her conscience and she sincerely regrets it. She would like to move forward in her Christian life. What is the confessor to do?"

“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that. But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."

“The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently....We have to find a new balance; otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel. The proposal of the Gospel must be more simple, profound, radiant. It is from this proposition that the moral consequences then flow."

It's past time that the concept of "condemn the sin, and embrace the sinner" was re-balanced far more to the latter and away from obsession about the former. I'm moved that the new Pope actually thinks that way too.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Married? Again?

Former President George HW Bush was the official witness at the marriage of Bonnie Clement and Helen Thorgalsen on Saturday. They are family friend of the Bush family and own a general store in Kennebunkport. He and Barbara both attended the wedding.

 

[Rover]

Former President George HW Bush was the official witness at the marriage of Bonnie Clement and Helen Thorgalsen on Saturday. They are family friend of the Bush family and own a general store in Kennebunkport. He and Barbara both attended the wedding.

I'm waiting for our righty friends to start questionining his patriotism now. Should be starting in 3, 2, 1....

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Married? Again?

Attending an event for a family friend? Understandable.

Nothing to see here. Keep moving along.

 

[Rover]

Attending an event for a family friend? Understandable.

Nothing to see here. Keep moving along.

But isn't he contributing to the breakdown of society?

You can't hand out exemptions if you happen to like somebody personally.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Married? Again?

But isn't he contributing to the breakdown of society?

You can't hand out exemptions if you happen to like somebody personally.

I'm not biting.

 

[Rover]

I'm not biting.

Its not about you personally Bob. Its about social conservatives as a whole. If a Dem family has a gay offspring, it must be because of how they were raised. But when Dick Cheney busts out a lesbian daughter, who then goes on to have a child no less, its funny how moderate these very same firebreathers suddenly become.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Married? Again?

You can't hand out exemptions if you happen to like somebody personally.

Why not? Obama does it all the time. Waiver after waiver after waiver any time a law gets uncomfortable for someone.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Married? Again?

I'm not biting.

Good call. His trolling has gone into overdrive over the past few months.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Married? Again?

Its not about you personally Bob. Its about social conservatives as a whole. If a Dem family has a gay offspring, it must be because of how they were raised. But when Dick Cheney busts out a lesbian daughter, who then goes on to have a child no less, its funny how moderate these very same firebreathers suddenly become.

So, this is about discussing why kids turn out various ways? Uh, that's a whole different subject and one that is hard to nail down. You have kids who grow up in totally messed up situations that turn out great and you have kids who seem to have the perfect childhood and their lives are a wreck. Trying to find some equation to explain it all is a fool's errand.

 

[Rover]

So, this is about discussing why kids turn out various ways? Uh, that's a whole different subject and one that is hard to nail down. You have kids who grow up in totally messed up situations that turn out great and you have kids who seem to have the perfect childhood and their lives are a wreck. Trying to find some equation to explain it all is a fool's errand.

Tell that to your conservative hypocrite friends then, not me. Either Dick Cheney is a terrible father who unbeknownest to his public image was clearly indoctrinating his kids with a Godless hedonistic lifestyle....or being gay is biological and not a product of your upbringing, which would make anti-gay laws discriminatory. Which one is it?