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Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

The documentary was clearly slanted but I also read some other stuff after the fact that supported the other side. To me, the documentary's biggest strength was showing how the defense was able to expose some of the mistakes/flaws of the police/investigators. However you want to classify it.

And even if they were using Dassey to make sure they got Avery, that doesn't change the fact that once they were finally able to get Dassey to tell them what they wanted to hear...the evidence STILL didn't support what the kid said. Amazing to me what they did to that kid.

And yet it seems as if all the same small town bumpkins are still in place. They were all in over their head from the start but apparently zero repercussions.
 
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Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?


Kind of a joke article. The doc does not portray him as an innocent, really. They showed the letters to his former wife, the ones containing the death threats and such. Arguably, the doc basically said he's not a good man at all, but in this particular murder case...reasonable doubt. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Was watching hln earlier and there was another interview with dassey the documentary didn't show. The more i hear and read, the more flawed the documentary is.
 
Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Was watching hln earlier and there was another interview with dassey the documentary didn't show. The more i hear and read, the more flawed the documentary is.

They had something like 700 hours of footage to cut down to 10, and they were telling the story from one side. But with all the additional information that is out there, on both sides (plenty of the defense is left out as well), there is still nothing that comes close to proving Avery's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

I think there is. The question is do you think the main evidence was planted by police.
 
Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

We can all agree he was set up!! This is so dirty on so many levels..

Blood planted
No blood in house or garage except the deer blood drops
Burn site in gravel pit then put placed on Avery property
Halbeck none of her DNA on key weird lol comical actually
Blood put on vehicle same exact same pattern when use a cue tip
If u did it u wouldn't clean garage/house and not car
U would crush car
U would find key first day
Vival took blood out
And 36 million reason to set up.. Venus killing and losing 36 million hmmm pretty simple here
Son of volunteer policeman on jury
Husband of county clerk on jury
Bullet never match gun just same model 22
Car key was not original was a copy
 
Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

I think there is. The question is do you think the main evidence was planted by police.

Where, when, and how was she killed? Where was the body burned? Those are some pretty fundamental questions that can't be clearly answered. I don't necessarily think Avery is innocent, but with the evidence you could make a good case for a total setup, Bobby Dassey or Scott Tadych or both, and Avery.
 
Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Unless you sat in the courtroom and listened to the prosecution (and the defense) present their case and cross-examine the witnesses, you really can't say for sure whether he was or wasn't proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
The moral may simply be something we already knew, and that Avery himself says at one point: the poor always lose.
This may very well be true. However it is important to remember that Avery wasn't "poor" for purposes of his case. He had the best defense money can buy, courtesy of the civil case.
 
Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Unless you sat in the courtroom and listened to the prosecution (and the defense) present their case and cross-examine the witnesses, you really can't say for sure whether he was or wasn't proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
Unless the documentary is leaving out key evidence then I disagree. There's been a few articles pointing out some circumstantial evidence that was left out, I don't think it's enough to make a difference in terms of getting past reasonable doubt, especially for Brendan. As far as I can tell they showed the strongest evidence against him, why it was flawed, and some of the logical leaps that were taken to acquire a conviction. More than anything though they highlighted a lot of systemic issues in our legal system.
 
Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Unless the documentary is leaving out key evidence then I disagree. There's been a few articles pointing out some circumstantial evidence that was left out, I don't think it's enough to make a difference in terms of getting past reasonable doubt, especially for Brendan. As far as I can tell they showed the strongest evidence against him, why it was flawed, and some of the logical leaps that were taken to acquire a conviction. More than anything though they highlighted a lot of systemic issues in our legal system.

read the last link I posted, I think it does a very good job of explaining the major issue with the show. If I had (or eventually find) time, I'd sit through the whole Brendan Dassey interrogations to see how everything else is provided by him, to know if it was fed to him by them or if some of the important details were actually provided by Brendan...like the bit about him helping Avery move the car and witnessing Avery disconnect the battery to the vehicle which led them to swab under the hood for Avery's DNA, which they found.
 
Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

I've been discussing this in a different forum and the other investigations of Dassey are as equally bad if not worse than the one we already saw in the documentary. Either way you're talking about a learning disabled kid and you can't just pick and choose which parts of it are valid and which parts are fed, he just wanted to get out of there and go back to watching wrestelmania and hand in his project. He basically just told them what they wanted to hear and if there was any truth in there it's so bogged down between so many layers of BS that there's no way of knowing.

Yes they found his DNA on the hood but she'd been around many times before and it's not that crazy to think he just touched it at some point. I guess I'd be curious as to where exactly they found it and whether the lab messed up like they did on various other things throughout this debacle.
 
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Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

I've been discussing this in a different forum and the other investigations of Dassey are as equally bad if not worse than the one we already saw in the documentary. Either way you're talking about a learning disabled kid and you can't just pick and choose which parts of it are valid and which parts are fed, he just wanted to get out of there and go back to watching wrestelmania and hand in his project. He basically just told them what they wanted to hear and if there was any truth in there it's so bogged down between so many layers of BS that there's no way of knowing.

Yes they found his DNA on the hood but she'd been around many times before and it's not that crazy to think he just touched it at some point. I guess I'd be curious as to where exactly they found it and whether the lab messed up like they did on various other things throughout this debacle.

Not gonna lie, the worst part about all of this is that so many people that helped convict him the first time chose not to recuse themselves from this case to prevent any appearance of conflict of interest. That is the part that bothers me the most, whether Avery or Dassey is actually guilty, I have no honest idea, but both of them deserved better from the system especially when all the talk via the media was that MCSD was hands off, and yet Lenk and Colborn were all over everything...not to mention Sherry Culhane, who was a big part of the case for convicting Avery the first time.
 
Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

read the last link I posted, I think it does a very good job of explaining the major issue with the show. If I had (or eventually find) time, I'd sit through the whole Brendan Dassey interrogations to see how everything else is provided by him, to know if it was fed to him by them or if some of the important details were actually provided by Brendan...like the bit about him helping Avery move the car and witnessing Avery disconnect the battery to the vehicle which led them to swab under the hood for Avery's DNA, which they found.

The tech that found the DNA on the hood latch had already been in the car and didn't change gloves before going to the hood. So like everything it is questionable. Could have been there, could have been transferred from inside the car by the tech collecting evidence.
 
Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

My assessment, based upon the series.

First, I always worry a little bit in these about what I'm not being told. No interviews with the cops or prosecutor. No question which direction the filmmakers leaned.

There are a couple of things that bother me about the evidence of Avery's guilt, ignoring anything the kid may have said in his "admissions." Why do the prosecutors think Avery killed her? The guy was no saint, but nothing in his past (at least revealed in the movie) suggests even a hint of a motive. What was the prosecution argument about what actually happened? Where was she killed, and then what? Based upon strictly what we saw in the series, I couldn't convict Avery with the idea that he supposedly killed her in the house (or at least stabbed her in the stomach and slit her throat), hauled her to the garage and shot her in the head, then loaded her into her own vehicle and transported her somewhere(?), burned her body, then loaded her burned remains back up and took them back to his house and burned them again? That just makes no sense at all, and there is too much physical evidence missing to corroborate the thin physical evidence supporting such a summary.

The prosecution must have had some sort of argument that made sense, or I can't see a jury convicting.

On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd just open Avery's cell door right now, pat him on the back and set him free without knowing a lot more than what this series told us.

First, the whole thing with the cops and the evidence is troubling, but I'm not yet convinced of a conspiracy by them. Conspiracies of many, many people, simply don't work. Someone breaks rank. I do think it is entirely credible that the key was planted, given the prior photos and search. Cops undoubtedly have been guilty of trying to "enhance" the strength of their case because they don't trust the evidence they have. You could see that even in some of the testimony. But what I'd like to know is if the cops planted the key, where did they get it?

Second, the filmmakers and defense did nothing to challenge the plain fact that this girl was last seen alive at Avery's home, that no calls or cellphone activity was performed by her after that point, and she turned up dead. Avery isn't the only one there, but there is also no evidence that she came across someone else who may have killed her, AND had the ability to try to pin this on Avery. I mean, let's assume Avery didn't kill her, and someone else other than the police did. That person now has to figure out a way to frame Avery by burning her and then either getting her bones back to Avery's house, or making sure the cops find them and trusting that they'll get them back to Avery's house. Same with the key.

If you want to go further and say the cops killed her to frame Avery, then you have to show that in fact the cops knew there was some connection between Avery and this girl. Otherwise you just happen to have a cop kill a random girl and dump her remains at Avery's.

The only firm conclusion I did reach from the series, no matter how biased the filmmakers, is that the justice system clearly failed the kid, Dassey. The interviews by the cops, while probably pretty standard for cops, would cause me to dismiss the relevance of that admission as a member of the jury. The treatment of Dassey by Len Kachinsky and his investigator makes me sick to my stomach. Neither of them should ever see the inside of a courtroom again, except as defendants.

At the end of the day, I am probably 51-49 that Avery killed her (which is not enough under our system), but open to the idea that the filmmakers edited out evidence that would make my confidence level higher. I don't believe for a minute Dassey was involved.
 
Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

The only firm conclusion I did reach from the series, no matter how biased the filmmakers, is that the justice system clearly failed the kid, Dassey. The interviews by the cops, while probably pretty standard for cops, would cause me to dismiss the relevance of that admission as a member of the jury. The treatment of Dassey by Len Kachinsky and his investigator makes me sick to my stomach. Neither of them should ever see the inside of a courtroom again, except as defendants.

At the end of the day, I am probably 51-49 that Avery killed her (which is not enough under our system), but open to the idea that the filmmakers edited out evidence that would make my confidence level higher. I don't believe for a minute Dassey was involved.

This. The Avery percentages may move a point or two, but as you said, not enough to convict.
 
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