Maine Offseason 2020: We Stay Home But Swayman Leaves

[Drew S.]

You make some crazy statements my man. As I said previously, I don't think it's going to be Ellsworth. I think I know who it will be. But to say Barr makes "much, much more sense than Ellsworth" is a crazy exaggeration. You do know one guy is already a head coach, right? A head coach who has had success everywhere, in every role. One who took over a power program and, I believe, IMPROVED the winning %. Not easy to do.

I don't know Cam Ellsworth personally, so don't take it that way. But I do have a pretty informed perspective on coaches/coaching and I'm not sure you have properly prioritized what makes coaches successful.

There is zero doubt you know much more about Cam Ellsworth than I do! May we all have someone in our lives who is supportive of us as you are Cam. I would like to think I understand Maine hockey a lot better than you do. If someone is going to be successful they are going to have to have some ties to the school and its alumni. Honestly having Jim Montgomery on your side is a huge deal, even if its just behind the scenes with alumni.

On top of that Maine needs a strong recruiter more than anything else and Barr has a great track record of that. Ellsworth could very well be better at the coaching bit but that hasn't been Maine's issue in recent times. There is a decent base to work with but for Maine to get back to where it wants to be someone is going to have to do a better job of finding top six talent.

 

[Chuck Murray]

There is zero doubt you know much more about Cam Ellsworth than I do! May we all have someone in our lives who is supportive of us as you are Cam. I would like to think I understand Maine hockey a lot better than you do. If someone is going to be successful they are going to have to have some ties to the school and its alumni. Honestly having Jim Montgomery on your side is a huge deal, even if its just behind the scenes with alumni.

On top of that Maine needs a strong recruiter more than anything else and Barr has a great track record of that. Ellsworth could very well be better at the coaching bit but that hasn't been Maine's issue in recent times. There is a decent base to work with but for Maine to get back to where it wants to be someone is going to have to do a better job of finding top six talent.

If UMaine can get Ben Barr to come to Orono, it would be a fantastic outcome for UMaine.

The trick, of course, is getting him to come in the first place. Keep in mind, Barr has earned the right to be picky, Ellsworth hasn't earned that quite yet, and based on the intelligence from some who've posted on here, seems far more motivated to grab just any old D-1 job that might open up (it does appear he's "drawn the line" at the 49th parallel, so only Alaska is out).

You want Barr to be your HC and master recruiter, and for good reason ... but first, you have to successfully recruit him to come to your school instead of other potential D-1 destinations, or even the option to stay put in Amherst and enjoy the fruit of his labors while waiting for the exact right position to open up. All reports on here indicate UMaine isn't going to be able to pay their HC hire much, and likely towards the bottom of the D-1 pay scale. That's not a good start.

Make believe you are Ben Barr, and think long and hard, "Why would I want to come to Orono now?"

Now, make believe you're Ken Ralph, or on his hiring committee. How do you plan to sell it to Barr?

The question isn't whether Barr would be a good hire - he would be. So would Scotty Bowman. The question is, how does UMaine make it worth his while? Assume this is NOT an under-the-radar hire (as Ellsworth would be), this is a coach that's literally on every D-1 AD's potential hiring list IF they're only moderately awake/paying attention.

1-2-3 now ... go sell Barr!!!

 

[KrbFlint]

There is zero doubt you know much more about Cam Ellsworth than I do! May we all have someone in our lives who is supportive of us as you are Cam. I would like to think I understand Maine hockey a lot better than you do. If someone is going to be successful they are going to have to have some ties to the school and its alumni. Honestly having Jim Montgomery on your side is a huge deal, even if its just behind the scenes with alumni.

On top of that Maine needs a strong recruiter more than anything else and Barr has a great track record of that. Ellsworth could very well be better at the coaching bit but that hasn't been Maine's issue in recent times. There is a decent base to work with but for Maine to get back to where it wants to be someone is going to have to do a better job of finding top six talent.

It's not as much "supportive" of Cam as I am objectively looking at coaching. I think Barr would be great, and I actually think he's going to be the guy. Your insistence that if someone is going to be successful they must have ties to the school flies in the face of the evidence/data. Sean broke it all down already. Previous ties aren't as important as the ability to connect with said groups. The two guys who, to me, would check all the boxes have passed on it already (Monty and Moore). So, perhaps time to widen the lens. My "support" of Ellsworth comes from the opinions of people in the hockey community, the D1 hockey community, and the Hockey East community. To a man, they think he's going to be a very successful D1 head coach when/if he chooses. Combining that with what I've seen from the Norwich program, and what I've heard from the folks in that community, yeah, I think he could do a great job at Maine. You think you understand Maine hockey a lot better than I do, and maybe you're right. I do, however, understand Maine hockey. I have close ties to the program and have been watching it closely since the Walsh days; I'm not an outsider chiming in.

Outside of what we think will make up a successful coach at Maine, I think our other area of "disagreement" is your belief that Maine was well-coached and just lacked talent. With all due respect to Red, I saw an undisciplined team with a general lack of accountability on the ice (by all accounts, Red was a fantastic human being who connected with, and mentored, his players well as men). I think that is part of good coaching. For Maine to regain some of the former glory, I think there needs to be an upgrade in both the recruiting and the on ice coaching.

At the end of the day, we're both hoping for the same thing, and that is for Maine to regain it's status as a power hockey program. While we may have different opinions on what, exactly, it will take to get them there, I doubt either of us will be disappointed if the result is positive.

 

[KrbFlint]

If UMaine can get Ben Barr to come to Orono, it would be a fantastic outcome for UMaine.

The trick, of course, is getting him to come in the first place. Keep in mind, Barr has earned the right to be picky, Ellsworth hasn't earned that quite yet, and based on the intelligence from some who've posted on here, seems far more motivated to grab just any old D-1 job that might open up (it does appear he's "drawn the line" at the 49th parallel, so only Alaska is out).

You want Barr to be your HC and master recruiter, and for good reason ... but first, you have to successfully recruit him to come to your school instead of other potential D-1 destinations, or even the option to stay put in Amherst and enjoy the fruit of his labors while waiting for the exact right position to open up. All reports on here indicate UMaine isn't going to be able to pay their HC hire much, and likely towards the bottom of the D-1 pay scale. That's not a good start.

Make believe you are Ben Barr, and think long and hard, "Why would I want to come to Orono now?"

Now, make believe you're Ken Ralph, or on his hiring committee. How do you plan to sell it to Barr?

The question isn't whether Barr would be a good hire - he would be. So would Scotty Bowman. The question is, how does UMaine make it worth his while? Assume this is NOT an under-the-radar hire (as Ellsworth would be), this is a coach that's literally on every D-1 AD's potential hiring list IF they're only moderately awake/paying attention.

1-2-3 now ... go sell Barr!!!

Playing the "other side of the coin" (pun not initially intended), I do know of coaches who have taken pay cuts to have the chance to run their own program. Sure, it's rare, but it does happen.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Playing the "other side of the coin" (pun not initially intended), I do know of coaches who have taken pay cuts to have the chance to run their own program. Sure, it's rare, but it does happen.

If that's even a small part of UMaine's pitch to Barr, they might as well not even bother.

This is a guy who has been part of building up three (3) eventual NCAA D-1 champions - Union, PC and UMass. This is not some desperate, ambitious, unknown assistant, who would crawl over broken glass to just snag the first D-1 job that comes across his plate. He helped build Union towards a D-1 title as an assistant, but was already at Providence doing it again by the time they won it, the pattern repeated itself at PC and then he was off to Western Michigan (where they improved, but won nothing) again as an assistant with an already-impressive resume, and finally he was still patiently working at UMass as an assistant when they rose to prominence over the last several seasons. If he was the desperate guy who would agree to a pay cut after doing his little "assistant wins a D-1 title" trick for a 3rd time, he surely would have done so much earlier. It's not like there haven't been dozens of openings since he left Union, but here is he, comfortable being the lead recruiter still.

He's been doing it so long at this point that he may be quite content to be a #2 guy as a lead recruiter for his entire career. And if you're looking for precedent for that unusual, less ambitious career path, you need look no further than this guy who was satisfied to fill exactly that role for UMaine for 25-30 years. Grant someone-or-another, I think it was???

There's a much better chance Barr decides to "do a Grant" if he's sold on UMass/Carvel and his long-term role there, rather than agree to take the UMaine job (or any other D-1 HC job) for a pay cut. The good news is, I'm sure as low as UMaine's budgeted HC salary would be, it's gotta be more than Barr is getting paid as an assistant out in Amherst now.

Again, based on his actions over the better part of the last decade, Barr is not some guy who appears in any way desperate to grab the first D-1 job that opens up. It sounds like Ellsworth has applied for more HC jobs during his relatively short stay at Norwich than Barr has during a much longer run from Union to the present. My point, I guess, is that if anyone seems to fit your "wants a D-1 HC job so badly he'll take a cut" scenario, it's way more likely going to be Ellsworth or someone like him than it would be Barr. Maybe if Barr had some special connection with UMaine, that ship might sail? But if Leaman is that "special connection", I think it's a very tenuous one AND keep in mind, Barr left Leaman/PC to go to Western Michigan.

I'm not saying Barr is absolutely not coming to UMaine. He may well come, but it won't involve a pay cut, that much I can assure you. His track record is that of a guy who is very comfortable being left to recruit and be a #2 (or earlier a #3?) to do something he apparently really loves doing. The "ace in the hole" for Barr coming is that he seems to move frequently, and his time in Amherst may be approaching his prior thresholds for moving on to the next job. On the other hand, he's not going to have the same budgets he's enjoyed at those other schools, so even beyond salary, his ability to recruit like he has previously would likely be restricted, too. UMaine's best shot is if they're lucky to be the right job for Barr at the right time. He's appeared to have been a very patient guy, when many others in his shoes may have reached to be a HC much sooner.

I figure there is a 10-15% chance Ben Barr is the HC of UMaine by this time next week.

 

[KrbFlint]

If that's even a small part of UMaine's pitch to Barr, they might as well not even bother.

This is a guy who has been part of building up three (3) eventual NCAA D-1 champions - Union, PC and UMass. This is not some desperate, ambitious, unknown assistant, who would crawl over broken glass to just snag the first D-1 job that comes across his plate. He helped build Union towards a D-1 title as an assistant, but was already at Providence doing it again by the time they won it, the pattern repeated itself at PC and then he was off to Western Michigan (where they improved, but won nothing) again as an assistant with an already-impressive resume, and finally he was still patiently working at UMass as an assistant when they rose to prominence over the last several seasons. If he was the desperate guy who would agree to a pay cut after doing his little "assistant wins a D-1 title" trick for a 3rd time, he surely would have done so much earlier. It's not like there haven't been dozens of openings since he left Union, but here is he, comfortable being the lead recruiter still.

He's been doing it so long at this point that he may be quite content to be a #2 guy as a lead recruiter for his entire career. And if you're looking for precedent for that unusual, less ambitious career path, you need look no further than this guy who was satisfied to fill exactly that role for UMaine for 25-30 years. Grant someone-or-another, I think it was???

There's a much better chance Barr decides to "do a Grant" if he's sold on UMass/Carvel and his long-term role there, rather than agree to take the UMaine job (or any other D-1 HC job) for a pay cut. The good news is, I'm sure as low as UMaine's budgeted HC salary would be, it's gotta be more than Barr is getting paid as an assistant out in Amherst now.

Again, based on his actions over the better part of the last decade, Barr is not some guy who appears in any way desperate to grab the first D-1 job that opens up. It sounds like Ellsworth has applied for more HC jobs during his relatively short stay at Norwich than Barr has during a much longer run from Union to the present. My point, I guess, is that if anyone seems to fit your "wants a D-1 HC job so badly he'll take a cut" scenario, it's way more likely going to be Ellsworth or someone like him than it would be Barr. Maybe if Barr had some special connection with UMaine, that ship might sail? But if Leaman is that "special connection", I think it's a very tenuous one AND keep in mind, Barr left Leaman/PC to go to Western Michigan.

I'm not saying Barr is absolutely not coming to UMaine. He may well come, but it won't involve a pay cut, that much I can assure you. His track record is that of a guy who is very comfortable being left to recruit and be a #2 (or earlier a #3?) to do something he apparently really loves doing. The "ace in the hole" for Barr coming is that he seems to move frequently, and his time in Amherst may be approaching his prior thresholds for moving on to the next job. On the other hand, he's not going to have the same budgets he's enjoyed at those other schools, so even beyond salary, his ability to recruit like he has previously would likely be restricted, too. UMaine's best shot is if they're lucky to be the right job for Barr at the right time. He's appeared to have been a very patient guy, when many others in his shoes may have reached to be a HC much sooner.

I figure there is a 10-15% chance Ben Barr is the HC of UMaine by this time next week.

I didn't say Barr would do it, or that UMaine would pitch it that way. I just said it happens. We're all experts here, I know, but none of us have any idea what Ben Barr's (or anyone else) thought process is.

UMaine is not, despite recent struggles, a desperation "grab the first thing which comes along" job. It's a program with a track record of excellence. It became that way due to a brash young coach who bet on himself and won, big time. If Ben Barr, or someone else, has that same confidence, they would absolutely take on the Maine job. Some of you guys talk about Maine like it's Niagara. If someone out there believes in their ability to recruit top end talent (and coach/develop said talent) there is ZERO reason they wouldn't take the job (outside of money).

Personally, I think it's a much higher percentage. We'll see.

 

[BoSox3066]

Some of you guys talk about Maine like it's Niagara. If someone out there believes in their ability to recruit top end talent (and coach/develop said talent) there is ZERO reason they wouldn't take the job (outside of money).

This. I don’t want anybody who’s worried about money or resources anywhere near this program. I want a guy with a Bill Belichick Shawn Walsh size ego that believes “Screw that, I’ll win there, because I’m better at this than you bozos and I can.”

the head guy has to believe. Everyone falls in line. When the head guy stops believing, everyone else can tell, everyone else lets excuses crop in and its over

 

[Chuck Murray]

I didn't say Barr would do it, or that UMaine would pitch it that way. I just said it happens. We're all experts here, I know, but none of us have any idea what Ben Barr's (or anyone else) thought process is.

For reasons outlined in my previous post ... I do think there are plenty of clues as to what Barr might or might not do, and you can get some insight into his thought process that way. The tricky part is, just when I want to say he's been patient to wait for an eventual move to a HC position, he's been very impatient in switching from program to program in a relatively short window of time. I did find this article on his hire at Western Michigan, which offers further clues, and mentions one very prominent name from this thread whose paths he crossed during a short volunteer assistant stint at RPI, which should be good news for UMaine-iacs far and near.

Ben Barr Named Associate Head Hockey Coach - Western Michigan University Athletics (wmubroncos.com)

UMaine is not, despite recent struggles, a desperation "grab the first thing which comes along" job. It's a program with a track record of excellence. It became that way due to a brash young coach who bet on himself and won, big time. If Ben Barr, or someone else, has that same confidence, they would absolutely take on the Maine job. Some of you guys talk about Maine like it's Niagara. If someone out there believes in their ability to recruit top end talent (and coach/develop said talent) there is ZERO reason they wouldn't take the job (outside of money).

The "outside of money" bit reminds me of the infamous make-believe question asked circa 1865, "Well, other than the last bit, how did you enjoy the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"

The "brash young coach" was about 10 years younger than Barr is now when he first took the UMaine job (I forget that part sometimes), so Barr is not going to be all that "brash" OR young if he comes now. And while I do agree the current UMaine that Barr (or anyone else) might come to is NOT Niagara, the UMaine that Walshy came to basically WAS Niagara. Which is why what he ended up accomplishing was so special. Problem is, the kids UMaine will be recruiting now have probably never heard of Shawn Walsh. The college age kids who were there for the '90's are now in their 40's and 50's. Time goes quickly.

Personally, I think it's a much higher percentage. We'll see.

After reading the WMU blurb linked above, I agree, but "much higher" is 20-25% to me. We'll see ...

 

[Chuck Murray]

A point I left out of the last post is, Walshy WAS the kind of coach who would have probably taken the first HC job he was ever offered. He wanted to be in charge. You do any cursory reading or checking out YouTube videos on the topic, and Walshy was coaching teams when he was a kid. There was no special connection prior to his hiring between Walsh and UMaine. What he did afterwards was beyond special, though - no doubt about it. UMaine was the right place, right time.

 

[KrbFlint]

The "brash young coach" was about 10 years younger than Barr is now when he first took the UMaine job (I forget that part sometimes), so Barr is not going to be all that "brash" OR young if he comes now. And while I do agree the current UMaine that Barr (or anyone else) might come to is NOT Niagara, the UMaine that Walshy came to basically WAS Niagara. Which is why what he ended up accomplishing was so special. Problem is, the kids UMaine will be recruiting now have probably never heard of Shawn Walsh. The college age kids who were there for the '90's are now in their 40's and 50's. Time goes quickly.



After reading the WMU blurb linked above, I agree, but "much higher" is 20-25% to me. We'll see ...

My point has nothing to do with Shawn Walsh's legacy at Maine. Yes, Shawn built Maine from "nothing" to a superpower. So, my point is exactly that; it's NOT "nothing" today. It's a once proud program which is down. Therefore, IMO, an easier "rebuild" than it was a "build" back then (the term "easy" being relative). When I say brash, I don't mean in the sense that Shawn needed to be brash to take on a major project (he was), I mean brash in terms of a strong, confident, personality. I have never met Ben Barr, but I hear he does fit that definition of "brash". As far as the kids today not knowing of Shawn Walsh. That is kind of my point. I'm saying if someone comes along (Barr or otherwise) with the personality I'm describing, they won't NEED to lean on the Walsh name; they'll do it on their own strengths/merits. That said, it won't hurt to be able to point to the history. Also, if I'm correct, Ben Barr won't turn 40 until December. While not "young" in the way Shawn Walsh was young, being a head coach before the age of 40 is still young in my book. I'd be curious to know how many D1 head men are under 40. It's entirely possible there are more than I think.

Finally, just for fun, I'd put the odds of Ben Barr being the head coach at Maine over 33%. Remember, they may offer and he may decline. The point, I believe, of all this conversation is to rebut the idea that Ken Ralph is just going to hand the job to Ben Guite. I chimed in because I am hearing that is NOT the case.

 

[Drew S.]

I didn't say Barr would do it, or that UMaine would pitch it that way. I just said it happens. We're all experts here, I know, but none of us have any idea what Ben Barr's (or anyone else) thought process is.

UMaine is not, despite recent struggles, a desperation "grab the first thing which comes along" job. It's a program with a track record of excellence. It became that way due to a brash young coach who bet on himself and won, big time. If Ben Barr, or someone else, has that same confidence, they would absolutely take on the Maine job. Some of you guys talk about Maine like it's Niagara. If someone out there believes in their ability to recruit top end talent (and coach/develop said talent) there is ZERO reason they wouldn't take the job (outside of money).

Personally, I think it's a much higher percentage. We'll see.

As much as we might disagree on your mate Cam I strongly agree with this post. I think $230K in Bangor along with other perks is a really good job. You can actually buy a house around Bangor right now which you can't say about the Boston area. There is hardly anything for sale down there right now.

After doing a little research this morning I'm convinced it makes way too much sense for both sides for it not to happen. I think the connection between Ralph and Barr from when they were both at RPI is something that probably makes a huge difference. I know it certainly would for me if I was in Barr's shoes.

The jobs that would be in Barr's sweetspot in Hockey East are Maine, UNH, and UConn. Only one of them is open and only one other looks likely to open anytime soon, and that could certainly change. I highly doubt BU, BC, or Northeastern would hire someone with no ties to the school and no head coaching experience. Obviously he could go to another conference but I'm not sure how much interest he would have in that and realistically are there any jobs in another conference that are likely to open up soon that he would want?

I'd put the odds of Barr being our next head coach by the end of the week at 90%.

 

[KrbFlint]

As much as we might disagree on your mate Cam I strongly agree with this post. I think $230K in Bangor along with other perks is a really good job. You can actually buy a house around Bangor right now which you can't say about the Boston area. There is hardly anything for sale down there right now.

After doing a little research this morning I'm convinced it makes way too much sense for both sides for it not to happen. I think the connection between Ralph and Barr from when they were both at RPI is something that probably makes a huge difference. I know it certainly would for me if I was in Barr's shoes.

The jobs that would be in Barr's sweetspot in Hockey East are Maine, UNH, and UConn. Only one of them is open and only one other looks likely to open anytime soon, and that could certainly change. I highly doubt BU, BC, or Northeastern would hire someone with no ties to the school and no head coaching experience. Obviously he could go to another conference but I'm not sure how much interest he would have in that and realistically are there any jobs in another conference that are likely to open up soon that he would want?

I'd put the odds of Barr being our next head coach by the end of the week at 90%.

I really want to put it that high too, but I don't have the guts haha.

 

[Chuck Murray]

As much as we might disagree on your mate Cam I strongly agree with this post. I think $230K in Bangor along with other perks is a really good job. You can actually buy a house around Bangor right now which you can't say about the Boston area. There is hardly anything for sale down there right now.

After doing a little research this morning I'm convinced it makes way too much sense for both sides for it not to happen. I think the connection between Ralph and Barr from when they were both at RPI is something that probably makes a huge difference. I know it certainly would for me if I was in Barr's shoes.

The jobs that would be in Barr's sweetspot in Hockey East are Maine, UNH, and UConn. Only one of them is open and only one other looks likely to open anytime soon, and that could certainly change. I highly doubt BU, BC, or Northeastern would hire someone with no ties to the school and no head coaching experience. Obviously he could go to another conference but I'm not sure how much interest he would have in that and realistically are there any jobs in another conference that are likely to open up soon that he would want?

I'd put the odds of Barr being our next head coach by the end of the week at 90%.

See, there's this place called the ECAC. Barr is pretty familiar with it. Went to RPI, coached at Union. Helped the latter to win their D-1 national title.

I'm not saying there are any open D-1 jobs in Boston, but one of the "perks" many of those schools have is they can assist with housing either on campus OR through friendly alums.

For the sake of my UMaine friends, I hope you guys are right. My guess is Barr stays put, and waits until something opens up that's a little bigger and pays way more. His behavior to date has been to remain an assistant, and not jump at the first thing that opens up. Maybe Mrs. Barr has family in the Downeast? My guess is if she did, you all would know that already.

 

[KrbFlint]

For the sake of my UMaine friends, I hope you guys are right. My guess is Barr stays put, and waits until something opens up that's a little bigger and pays way more. His behavior to date has been to remain an assistant, and not jump at the first thing that opens up. Maybe Mrs. Barr has family in the Downeast? My guess is if she did, you all would know that already.

I suspect the hockey coaching community, in general, views the Maine job differently than you do. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Blackbear96]

Why do you think Ben will be a bad hire? He’s been very clear in the interviews he’s done that the program needs to go in a different direction.

Sorry to go back on a prior conversation, but have been out of the loop for a few days. I don't have any possible way of knowing with certainty that Ben Guite would be a bad hire, but merely would prefer a complete separation from the past regime(s). Give me a complete clean slate. No ties to past glory. Just pure determination to bring a national championship to Orono. If that means the chosen coach leaves for a bigger opportunity in five years after sustained success, then by all means, I'll accept that fate. If that means that some recruits don't make their way to Orono from this prior class, also fine. So be it. I'll take a lackluster 2021 for improved future years.

Appreciate the past, be thankful it happened, but we need to move on. Here's hoping Ken Ralph agrees. Ben Barr, if you're reading this, we're hopeful! Haha.

 

[Drew S.]

I suspect the hockey coaching community, in general, views the Maine job differently than you do. Maybe I'm wrong.

I think only the Harvard job would be looked at as potentially being better than Maine in the ECAC. For Barr being an RPI alumni that might be appealing but they have a fairly new coach so could be some time until it is open again. I’d be very surprised if an ECAC job is what he’s holding out for.

 

[KrbFlint]

I think only the Harvard job would be looked at as potentially being better than Maine in the ECAC. For Barr being an RPI alumni that might be appealing but they have a fairly new coach so could be some time until it is open again. I’d be very surprised if an ECAC job is what he’s holding out for.

I agree with this assessment.

 

[Jackcurtis23]

Harvard is a beast with tier 1 incoming players...it's Donato's job until he decides he is done or has NHL aspirations.

 

[KrbFlint]

FWIW, yet another person inside Hockey East just told me they’re hearing it’s Barr. Hopefully what we’re hearing is right.

 

[Jackcurtis23]

I don't yet know how to respond to posts yet as a new user (and somewhat tech challenged), but I heard same thing KrbFlint. It's Barr's to turn down.