Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

[Bob Gray]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Bob I'm sympathetic to your views on this issue but you need to get off your high horse sometimes. I'm not sure why all you guys see yourselves as martyrs.

I'd take this comment slightly seriously if you said it to folks on your side of the spectrum who are much more over the top. But, it's ok for folks to be on their high horse when you agree with them, eh?

 

[Priceless]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Doing business in a state means you agree to abide by the laws of the state.

Damm Socialists and their laws!

 

[unofan]

What they're really afraid of is having to provide services to gay people in a non-religious context. Ie, you're a devout evangelical baker who makes the best wedding cakes in town. A gay couple asks you to make a wedding cake for them, but you don't want to serve them because you're a bigot err because of your religious convictions. That's a wholly different argument dealing with anti-discrimination laws, though, and has nothing to do with gay marriage and DOMA itself.

Did I call it or what.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Really, I think it's a bit petty and silly to deny service in most cases, unless there is something you are asked to do that really cuts deeply in some way. Selling a cake to a homosexual couple to me isn't a big of a deal and I would have no problem doing so. We as a nation spend way, way too much time moaning and squabbling about things that really aren't meaningful. Now, if they told me I had to endorse their lifestyle in order to give me their business, that's an entirely different discussion. But if they walk in the door, ask for a cake as anyone else does, and pay for it and pick it up like anyone else, I don't see what the issue is.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Did I call it or what.

Congratulations. You get a cookie.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Really, I think it's a bit petty and silly to deny service in most cases, unless there is something you are asked to do that really cuts deeply in some way. Selling a cake to a homosexual couple to me isn't a big of a deal and I would have no problem doing so. We as a nation spend way, way too much time moaning and squabbling about things that really aren't meaningful. Now, if they told me I had to endorse their lifestyle in order to give me their business, that's an entirely different discussion. But if they walk in the door, ask for a cake as anyone else does, and pay for it and pick it up like anyone else, I don't see what the issue is.

This is why I find it hard to fathom that there are supposedly a bunch of bakers out there who have so much religious fire that selling a gay couple a cake would be a major issue. At the end of the day, business is business, and money is money.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Depends on the state. But where sexual orientation is protected, yes. Selling a wedding cake is not a religious function.

Put another way, if you can be sued for not selling a car to a gay man because he is gay, you can be sued for not selling him a cake for the same reason.

State and federal antidiscrimination laws are wholly separate from the constitutional provisions at play when discussing marriage and the government's recognition thereof.

Based upon this recent suit, marriage isn't a religious function, either.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

And at the end of the day why would you want to buy a cake from a "biggot"? We have religious freedoms in this country that should protect an indiciduals beliefs as much as the church. In all honesty, businesses should be able to discriminate and let public opinion decide if they deserve to survive as a business. People go to great lengths to try and boycott Koch industries or whoever yet some people force conservatives to sell them a cake or whatever? Why would you want them to make money off of you?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

This is why I find it hard to fathom that there are supposedly a bunch of bakers out there who have so much religious fire that selling a gay couple a cake would be a major issue. At the end of the day, business is business, and money is money.

I'd go further. I think not baking someone a cake because they are gay is some seriously misplaced understanding of what should be religiously important, at least under Christian tenets. The old "love the sinner, hate the sin" thing, which obviously many people don't try to carry out or don't carry out well. No meaningful point is made by denying a cake, other than that we can find ways to be very petty toward one another. To me it's not about business, but rather respect for my fellow man.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Did I call it or what.

You're a freaking genius since its already going to court in various places. It's not like you called it before the fact.

 

[Rover]

I'd take this comment slightly seriously if you said it to folks on your side of the spectrum who are much more over the top. But, it's ok for folks to be on their high horse when you agree with them, eh?

Anybody going around saying 9-11 was an inside job, or who thinks the Iraq War was launched to add value to the defense and oil sector investments that Bush/Cheney/etc had in their stock portfolio deserves and gets equal scorn. The problem is half the Democratic party in Congress isn't putting forth such nonsense. Its mostly reserved for the Ralphie Nader crowd.

I will say I erred on one point however, which is the motivations behind the angst conservatives all seem to be under (I don't know too many happy conservatives out there). In the past as you well know I chalked up conservatism to a combination of 1) old people, and 2) people not getting laid. Now either of those, or both, might still be true, but I think the issue is something else. A lot of you have fallen victim to a slick marketing campaign that has been honed and microtargeted almost to perfection. In this case, its gay marriage will lead to the country's downfall as society continues to decay. What I would ask of you personally is to consider that a lot of these same things were said about interracial marriage, who's prohibition was also rooted in centuries of historical precedence. In fact, in a famous debate, even the great Abe Lincoln stated "never had a black woman for a slave or a wife". His views in the 1850's or their historical roots have no bearing on the debate today despite his status.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

And at the end of the day why would you want to buy a cake from a "biggot"? We have religious freedoms in this country that should protect an indiciduals beliefs as much as the church. In all honesty, businesses should be able to discriminate and let public opinion decide if they deserve to survive as a business. People go to great lengths to try and boycott Koch industries or whoever yet some people force conservatives to sell them a cake or whatever? Why would you want them to make money off of you?

I think that's a dangerous road to go down though. Apart from something really blatant that a business does that's offensive, I think we all benefit from an atmosphere where we can do and transact business with one another without analyzing what business aligns with my political/social views or whatever. Do we really want businesses run out of business if their owners hold different views on a subject than the majority of the populace (again assuming it's not something really offensive)?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Anybody going around saying 9-11 was an inside job, or who thinks the Iraq War was launched to add value to the defense and oil sector investments that Bush/Cheney/etc had in their stock portfolio deserves and gets equal scorn. The problem is half the Democratic party in Congress isn't putting forth such nonsense. Its mostly reserved for the Ralphie Nader crowd.

I will say I erred on one point however, which is the motivations behind the angst conservatives all seem to be under (I don't know too many happy conservatives out there). In the past as you well know I chalked up conservatism to a combination of 1) old people, and 2) people not getting laid. Now either of those, or both, might still be true, but I think the issue is something else. A lot of you have fallen victim to a slick marketing campaign that has been honed and microtargeted almost to perfection. In this case, its gay marriage will lead to the country's downfall as society continues to decay. What I would ask of you personally is to consider that a lot of these same things were said about interracial marriage, who's prohibition was also rooted in centuries of historical precedence. In fact, in a famous debate, even the great Abe Lincoln stated "never had a black woman for a slave or a wife". His views in the 1850's or their historical roots have no bearing on the debate today despite his status.

You miscalculate greatly. People who hold these views held them long before anybody ever talked about the possibility of gay marriage. So, how would a marketing campaign target something that didn't exist?

I don't think gay marriage is, in and of itself driving this country to decay. It's merely one of many indicators (some of which fall on both sides of the aisle, such as corporate greed and malfeasance being tolerated too much on the Republican side) of the overall slide. How we got here is much more complex than any specific issue such as gay marriage.

I heard someone make an interesting point recently that there is plenty of evidence the United States is not a Christian country anymore (assuming for argument's sake that it was at one time), so why expect a non-Christian nation to reflect Christian values? They are just doing what would be expected of those who don't hold Christian views, and people shouldn't expect anything else.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

I think that's a dangerous road to go down though. Apart from something really blatant that a business does that's offensive, I think we all benefit from an atmosphere where we can do and transact business with one another without analyzing what business aligns with my political/social views or whatever. Do we really want businesses run out of business if their owners hold different views on a subject than the majority of the populace (again assuming it's not something really offensive)?

Its called the free market, if the consumer can choose to do business with who they want for whatever reason they choose, shouldn't the business also be able to decline to whichever consumer they want?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Its called the free market, if the consumer can choose to do business with who they want for whatever reason they choose, shouldn't the business also be able to decline to whichever consumer they want?

Oh, I'm not saying people can't do that in a free country, within existing laws of course. I just think it takes us down a road that lessens all of us in the end by making things even more partisan and rancorous than they would be otherwise.

 

[unofan]

Its called the free market, if the consumer can choose to do business with who they want for whatever reason they choose, shouldn't the business also be able to decline to whichever consumer they want?

The South called. They want Jim Crow back.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

The South called. They want Jim Crow back.

Jim Crow was about LAWS preventing businesses from making a choice for themselves. That is completely different. You don't understand the difference? Government has a monopoly on force and Jim Crow Laws forced businesses to practice segregation. Businesses making a choices that help or hurt their business are part of business. Look at the outrage for Abercrombie & Fitch over the comments from the CEO? No one makes him do that and it has an effect on the bottom line or public perception of the company. You of all people should understand the difference between government forcing someone to do something versus businesses and consumers making choices for themselves.

 

[Rover]

You miscalculate greatly. People who hold these views held them long before anybody ever talked about the possibility of gay marriage. So, how would a marketing campaign target something that didn't exist?

I don't think gay marriage is, in and of itself driving this country to decay. It's merely one of many indicators (some of which fall on both sides of the aisle, such as corporate greed and malfeasance being tolerated too much on the Republican side) of the overall slide. How we got here is much more complex than any specific issue such as gay marriage.

I heard someone make an interesting point recently that there is plenty of evidence the United States is not a Christian country anymore (assuming for argument's sake that it was at one time), so why expect a non-Christian nation to reflect Christian values? They are just doing what would be expected of those who don't hold Christian views, and people shouldn't expect anything else.

Bob the marketing campaign is based upon the notion that the way of life you think of as "the norm" is being changed by people without your same (and presumably higher) values. Gay marriage is just one of many isses that fit into that critique. For others it may be Obama's supposed Kenyan birth. Or immigration reform. Think of huskyfan's obsession with Sharia Law in the US. Any one of these issues can be spun into the inevitable doom that is always just around the corner. The issue may change, or better said, can be honed depending on who you're trying to reach, but the message is always the same.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Bob the marketing campaign is based upon the notion that the way of life you think of as "the norm" is being changed by people without your same (and presumably higher) values. Gay marriage is just one of many isses that fit into that critique. For others it may be Obama's supposed Kenyan birth. Or immigration reform. Think of huskyfan's obsession with Sharia Law in the US. Any one of these issues can be spun into the inevitable doom that is always just around the corner. The issue may change, or better said, can be honed depending on who you're trying to reach, but the message is always the same.

You mean the norm of all of human history until the last handful of years?

 

[alfablue]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

So then what's the problem with someone going to a shop in the next town to get what they want? Let's say the couple is in Newcomb NY, and the closest civil place is 40 miles away.

This is a town that has no officals and does not offer marriage licences? If Newcomb NY has a government, and does give out licences, then it stands to reason that they are sanctioning marriage. so if they are, it's their legal responsibilty to marry any two people who are legaly able to. That's part of what you sign up for when taking a public office, part of the legal responsibilty of the position.