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Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

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Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Priceless said:
Just what do you have in store for L'il??? :D
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WisconsinWildcard said:
But if God forgives you and you are a believer you get to go to heaven? Or do those who commit unspeakable acts go to the Motel 6 of heaven?

I am not trying to start an all out religious debate and I find you a very reasonable poster but the whole God forgiveness, heaven/hell thing has never made much sense to me. I was raised Catholic so I admit there are more "liberal" belief systems out there and I may be biased towards focusing on strict interpretation. To me, saying homosexuality is a sin (not saying you personally do) which is not a choice (its not) might cause you to go to hell but on the other hand saying God forgives if you are truly sorry for something horrible you did out of "free will" is really troublesome.
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I grew up Unitarian (which gave a number of my religious relatives fits) but ended up Lutheran by choice in a very liberal congregation. I do not believe homosexuality is a sin. There is a bunch of medical evidence that clearly shows that this isn't a choice and I firmly believe that what God made is not evil. Even though there are people who profess this is a horrible sin we should get our knickers in a twist about there is very little in the Bible about it. There is a helluva lot more about protecting the weak in society. (No one seems to have their knickers in a twist to the same level when we have kids starving in our communities)

I have a sort of nebulous view of God's dealings with forgiveness and horrible acts. Human character is not black and white. A person may do a big heinous thing but then do many wonderful things for years. Does the one heinous thing negate the yrs of good stuff? A person can be truly repentant after doing something awful. That does not absolve them the responsibility for the action, from the punishment society metes out or remove that act from their history. If a person willfully and actively does horrible things and has no remorse (sociopath) then that is different. there is a difference between forgiveness and forgetting. I don't believe stuff is forgotten.

Not particularly articulate tonight but I find this topic fascinating. My Godmother and I discuss this a lot. We usually decide we will never figure it out and that is God's job.
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

WisconsinWildcard said:
But if God forgives you and you are a believer you get to go to heaven? Or do those who commit unspeakable acts go to the Motel 6 of heaven?

I am not trying to start an all out religious debate and I find you a very reasonable poster but the whole God forgiveness, heaven/hell thing has never made much sense to me. I was raised Catholic so I admit there are more "liberal" belief systems out there and I may be biased towards focusing on strict interpretation. To me, saying homosexuality is a sin (not saying you personally do) which is not a choice (its not) might cause you to go to hell but on the other hand saying God forgives if you are truly sorry for something horrible you did out of "free will" is really troublesome.
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I was raised a Catholic as well. Parochial school, Franciscan Sisters, religion class every day, sermons from the Parish Pastor in class pretty much weekly. I don't quite get the troublesome aspect. I was taught it's all pretty much in Gods hands including his capacity to forgive any sin. The only unforgivable sin was complete, unrepentant rejection of the Holy Spirit. Or one who blasphemes the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness. Such forgiveness may be troublesome, even to people of faith. I was taught that's what faith is. Believing / accepting things you may not understand or like very much, but believing nonetheless. That is faith...as I was taught.
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

leswp1 said:
I grew up Unitarian (which gave a number of my religious relatives fits) but ended up Lutheran by choice in a very liberal congregation. I do not believe homosexuality is a sin. There is a bunch of medical evidence that clearly shows that this isn't a choice and I firmly believe that what God made is not evil. Even though there are people who profess this is a horrible sin we should get our knickers in a twist about there is very little in the Bible about it. There is a helluva lot more about protecting the weak in society. (No one seems to have their knickers in a twist to the same level when we have kids starving in our communities)

I have a sort of nebulous view of God's dealings with forgiveness and horrible acts. Human character is not black and white. A person may do a big heinous thing but then do many wonderful things for years. Does the one heinous thing negate the yrs of good stuff? A person can be truly repentant after doing something awful. That does not absolve them the responsibility for the action, from the punishment society metes out or remove that act from their history. If a person willfully and actively does horrible things and has no remorse (sociopath) then that is different. there is a difference between forgiveness and forgetting. I don't believe stuff is forgotten.

Not particularly articulate tonight but I find this topic fascinating. My Godmother and I discuss this a lot. We usually decide we will never figure it out and that is God's job.
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brookyone said:
I was raised a Catholic as well. Parochial school, Franciscan Sisters, religion class every day, sermons from the Parish Pastor in class pretty much weekly. I don't quite get the troublesome aspect. I was taught it's all pretty much in Gods hands including his capacity to forgive any sin. The only unforgivable sin was complete, unrepentant rejection of the Holy Spirit. Or one who blasphemes the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness. Such forgiveness may be troublesome, even to people of faith. I was taught that's what faith is. Believing / accepting things you may not understand or like very much, but believing nonetheless. That is faith...as I was taught.
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Thanks for adding your perspective. Although I may disagree with certain conclusions, it is hard to ignore that both sides of the issue have many people with tremendous empathy for their fellow man (and woman). As this is not a religious debate thread, I will leave it at that.

I often use this quote (attributed to Marcus Aurelius although I have not found it in any primary sources) to describe my position as it tends to find a lot of common ground.

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but...will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
 
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Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

WisconsinWildcard said:
Thanks for adding your perspective. Although I may disagree with certain conclusions, it is hard to ignore that both sides of the issue have many people with tremendous empathy for their fellow man (and woman). As this is not a religious debate thread, I will leave it at that.

I often use this quote (attributed to Marcus Aurelius although I have not found it in any primary sources) to describe my position as it tends to find a lot of common ground.

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but...will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
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That about sums it up. It is always interesting to 'hear' other's views on this kind of thing. Having grown up a Unitarian, my default is to be curious and to consider the merits of what someone says rather than whether it is dogmatically correct. Never formally 'trained' in the religion I practice. Am more of a freelancer who has found a home in a very liberal congregation. Not much dogma (or what ever Lutherans call it). Lots of thinking. Had a patient once who was a rabbinical student. THe basis for her religious education was to debate the different precepts. I could have listened to her forever.
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

I would just like to say that I encourage these protests by topless women and hope that trend catches on here in the States!

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Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

SO the Boy Scouts just said yes to kids but not adults. Kind of weird, mixed message. Are they saying that they train kids to be leaders, help them grow as people but when they hit the end of puberty it wears off and they are stupid? All I can think of is the Star Trek episode that the kids are all normal until puberty when they turn into weird and dangerous Grups.
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

leswp1 said:
SO the Boy Scouts just said yes to kids but not adults. Kind of weird, mixed message. Are they saying that they train kids to be leaders, help them grow as people but when they hit the end of puberty it wears off and they are stupid? All I can think of is the Star Trek episode that the kids are all normal until puberty when they turn into weird and dangerous Grups.
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Join the organization and they'll pray the gay away. If it doesn't work and you're still gay they kick you to the curb.
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

leswp1 said:
SO the Boy Scouts just said yes to kids but not adults. Kind of weird, mixed message. Are they saying that they train kids to be leaders, help them grow as people but when they hit the end of puberty it wears off and they are stupid? All I can think of is the Star Trek episode that the kids are all normal until puberty when they turn into weird and dangerous Grups.
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This is a job for... WESTBORO BAPTIST!
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

leswp1 said:
SO the Boy Scouts just said yes to kids but not adults. Kind of weird, mixed message. Are they saying that they train kids to be leaders, help them grow as people but when they hit the end of puberty it wears off and they are stupid? All I can think of is the Star Trek episode that the kids are all normal until puberty when they turn into weird and dangerous Grups.
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Probably has a lot to do with the homophobic idea that all gay men are pedophiles.
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

leswp1 said:
SO the Boy Scouts just said yes to kids but not adults. Kind of weird, mixed message. Are they saying that they train kids to be leaders, help them grow as people but when they hit the end of puberty it wears off and they are stupid? All I can think of is the Star Trek episode that the kids are all normal until puberty when they turn into weird and dangerous Grups.
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Hey, baby steps are better than no steps. ;)
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

FadeToBlack&Gold said:
Hey, baby steps are better than no steps. ;)
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I get that, but the logic completely defies me. If you are letting these kids progress through the ranks the organization says they have learned the right stuff to move up. Do you unlearn that? Does the organization, which prides itself on building character, think they are doing a poor job training them?
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

leswp1 said:
I get that, but the logic completely defies me. If you are letting these kids progress through the ranks the organization says they have learned the right stuff to move up. Do you unlearn that? Does the organization, which prides itself on building character, think they are doing a poor job training them?
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I do not think logic is a strong suit of those who discriminate against homosexuals. If anything, I think homosexual individuals who grew up in this country would be the best at teaching children how to build character. In my experience, for all the **** they are put through, they are among the strongest people I know.
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

WisconsinWildcard said:
I do not think logic is a strong suit of those who discriminate against homosexuals. If anything, I think homosexual individuals who grew up in this country would be the best at teaching children how to build character. In my experience, for all the **** they are put through, they are among the strongest people I know.
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Well put.
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

leswp1 said:
SO the Boy Scouts just said yes to kids but not adults. Kind of weird, mixed message. Are they saying that they train kids to be leaders, help them grow as people but when they hit the end of puberty it wears off and they are stupid? All I can think of is the Star Trek episode that the kids are all normal until puberty when they turn into weird and dangerous Grups.
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Once again, the government sticking its nose into private organizations.
 
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