Ivy League standing alone?

[FireKnight]

Re: Ivy League standing alone?

The non-Ivies would never agree to a scheduling agreement. While most of the non-Ivies would love to continue to play Cornell, Harvard, and Yale, there would be no incentive for them to play Princeton or Brown and only marginal incentive to play Dartmouth. The lower half of the Ivies would be forced to become incestuous and schedule themselves more or schedule more games against AHA opponents. Clarkson/SLU/RPI and Union would much rather schedule more games against themselves than games against Princeton or Brown. If they chose some variety, they'd rather play in-state rivals such as RIT and Niagara that would probably draw better crowds and more interest. QU would likely find itself scheduling more HEA out of conference games, especially given its TV deal that could get the games on NESN and SNY.

With QU being the possible outlier, the Ivies and Non-Ivies in the ECAC have a similar educational mission. The conference fits well together. There's no reason to change.

 

[LordofBrewtown]

Re: Ivy League standing alone?

The non-Ivies would never agree to a scheduling agreement. While most of the non-Ivies would love to continue to play Cornell, Harvard, and Yale, there would be no incentive for them to play Princeton or Brown and only marginal incentive to play Dartmouth. The lower half of the Ivies would be forced to become incestuous and schedule themselves more or schedule more games against AHA opponents. Clarkson/SLU/RPI and Union would much rather schedule more games against themselves than games against Princeton or Brown. If they chose some variety, they'd rather play in-state rivals such as RIT and Niagara that would probably draw better crowds and more interest. QU would likely find itself scheduling more HEA out of conference games, especially given its TV deal that could get the games on NESN and SNY.

Thanks. That's the kind of thing I was looking for as to why a split/scheduling agreement would/would not make sense. I'll admit that I'm a bit surprised; but, you know the eastern landscape better.

 

[TimU]

Re: Ivy League standing alone?

The last time this discussion happened, I seem to remember people saying that there is a minimum number (can't remember what it was but it was >6) for conference membership in order to qualify for an auto-bid. Am I making that up or do others recall it as well?

I don't think it matters, because I think Kepler is right on the money, but I'm not so sure the Ivy champion would get an automatic bid even if they did want to break away.

 

[MarkEagleUSA]

Re: Ivy League standing alone?

Pretty sure 6 is the minimum for an autobid.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Ivy League standing alone?

The last time this discussion happened, I seem to remember people saying that there is a minimum number (can't remember what it was but it was >6) for conference membership in order to qualify for an auto-bid. Am I making that up or do others recall it as well?

If I recall correctly, someone posted a link to a rulebook or something like that, 6 was minimum number (e.g., why the Big Six had to wait for Penn State to join).

 

[kdiff77]

Re: Ivy League standing alone?

I don't think there's any chance the Ivy League would go solo unless Penn AND Columbia were to add hockey. Penn could do it with relative ease, but I doubt Columbia has any interest whatsoever in a sport that is expensive to fund and is not very profitable, especially considering there isn't an established market for college hockey in the NYC area.

Yes, special one-off events at MSG have drawn good crowds, but that can be attributed to local alumni of the teams involved attending the games, rather than local neutral fans taking an interest in college hockey. For Columbia, which has a wretched athletics history, there isn't a substantial existing fanbase to tap into, nor any sort of recruiting advantages. This is likely why they're the only Ivy school without a men's lacrosse team, as well.

It simply doesn't make sense for them to undertake such an endeavor, and thus, the Ivy League will likely never split off - even if Penn does add a team at some point (though there is no indication that they will do so, either).

 

[kdiff77]

Re: Ivy League standing alone?

With that said - if we lose Quinnipiac to HEA and Penn adds a D1 program, all of the ECAC's issues are resolved, including travel partner complications.

 

[LordofBrewtown]

Re: Ivy League standing alone?

With that said - if we lose Quinnipiac to HEA and Penn adds a D1 program, all of the ECAC's issues are resolved, including travel partner complications.

So, since we're having fun speculating...what would happen if you don't lose Q, and Penn moves back up to D1; or Penn moves back up to D1; but, not until after you've replaced Q with someone else (RIT or HC)?

You indicated that the Ivies would not split. So, would they go with a 13 team conference??? Or add another and go to 14? Maybe another thread topic should be: what is the ideal # of teams for a conference?

 

[e.cat]

Re: Ivy League standing alone?

Well said! I would like to think that my alma mater always places emphasis on the "student-athlete" and is supportive of its coaches in all sports - some serving in excess of a 1/4 century. We certainly like to win but we are equally proud of the men (and women) who go on to success, not only in professional hockey as players, coaches and owners, but in life. It will always be a struggle to go to the NCAA's - let alone the ECAC Final Four- but when we do we like to think that we have done it the right way

Just read (Manchester Union Leader 3/21) that Paul Cormier, Dartmouth BBall coach got fired for poor results. No mention in the article about emphasis on the "student-athlete."

 

[bulldog10jw]

Re: Ivy League standing alone?

If I remember correctly, Yale fired hockey coach Paul Lufkin in the mid 70's after 2 absolutely horrible seasons. He may have even been dumped during the second season, my memory is a little foggy.

An old Yale alum always said that the teachers on the playing field should be held to the same standard as the teachers in the classroom.

 

[LTsatch]

Re: Ivy League standing alone?

If I remember correctly, Yale fired hockey coach Paul Lufkin in the mid 70's after 2 absolutely horrible seasons. He may have even been dumped during the second season, my memory is a little foggy.

An old Yale alum always said that the teachers on the playing field should be held to the same standard as the teachers in the classroom.

Not hockey, but Carm Cozza comes to mind as the epitome of that statement.

 

[RSTuthill]

Re: Ivy League standing alone?

It's a perennial speculation. The summary of about ten thousand prior discussions is:

1. It will never happen.

2. Which is a good thing because it's a stupid idea that helps nobody.

3. Goto 1.

Exactly. Well said. Helps nobody.

 

[czeny9399]

I don't think there's any chance the Ivy League would go solo unless Penn AND Columbia were to add hockey. Penn could do it with relative ease, but I doubt Columbia has any interest whatsoever in a sport that is expensive to fund and is not very profitable, especially considering there isn't an established market for college hockey in the NYC area.

Yes, special one-off events at MSG have drawn good crowds, but that can be attributed to local alumni of the teams involved attending the games, rather than local neutral fans taking an interest in college hockey. For Columbia, which has a wretched athletics history, there isn't a substantial existing fanbase to tap into, nor any sort of recruiting advantages. This is likely why they're the only Ivy school without a men's lacrosse team, as well.

It simply doesn't make sense for them to undertake such an endeavor, and thus, the Ivy League will likely never split off - even if Penn does add a team at some point (though there is no indication that they will do so, either).

What was the reasoning behind Penn dropping it's program anyways? Funding, lack of interest? If they wanted to add hockey seems like now would be as good as time any. PA is turning into a hockey hotbed so to speak with numerous minor league teams that draw well, along with the new program at Penn St. Plus being the only ncaa hockey program in Philly, I would think they could work out a deal with the Flyers to possibly host a tournament as well.

 

[QUAlum2004]

Re: Ivy League standing alone?

What was the reasoning behind Penn dropping it's program anyways? Funding, lack of interest? If they wanted to add hockey seems like now would be as good as time any. PA is turning into a hockey hotbed so to speak with numerous minor league teams that draw well, along with the new program at Penn St. Plus being the only ncaa hockey program in Philly, I would think they could work out a deal with the Flyers to possibly host a tournament as well.

It was a funding issue from what I read. Penn still has a pretty nice rink that would be acceptable for D1 with upgrades.

http://cms.business-services.upenn.edu/icerink/about-us.html

 

[kdiff77]

So, since we're having fun speculating...what would happen if you don't lose Q, and Penn moves back up to D1; or Penn moves back up to D1; but, not until after you've replaced Q with someone else (RIT or HC)?

You indicated that the Ivies would not split. So, would they go with a 13 team conference??? Or add another and go to 14? Maybe another thread topic should be: what is the ideal # of teams for a conference?

Good question! I've wondered this myself in the past.

The likeliest scenario is to pick up a 14th team (Holy Cross? RIT? Maybe see if Merrimack has interest in competing with schools that are more similar to them?).

However, this complicates things because the Ivies have capped the amount of games they can play at 29 total. So assuming each ECAC team would play the others twice, that's 26 league games and only three nonconference games. That's obviously not reasonable, since Harvard would use two of those on the Beanpot alone and would set the Ivies at a inherent disadvantage in the PWR.

The only way a 14-team conference involving the Ivy schools could work is if the league goes with an unbalanced schedule - maybe each team plays seven conference opponents twice and the remaining six just once for a total of 20 games. However, this is an undesirable option for obvious reasons.

I don't think we'll see Penn join D1 anytime soon, but if they do, I personally think that would be all Quinnipiac needs to make the jump to HEA. So we'd end up with 12 teams, which is clearly the ECAC's desired M.O. for the foreseeable future.

 

[kdiff77]

It was a funding issue from what I read. Penn still has a pretty nice rink that would be acceptable for D1 with upgrades.

http://cms.business-services.upenn.edu/icerink/about-us.html

From the pictures I've seen, that rink would be better than several current ECAC rinks even without any improvements!

 

[tape]

Re: Ivy League standing alone?

It was a funding issue from what I read. Penn still has a pretty nice rink that would be acceptable for D1 with upgrades.

http://cms.business-services.upenn.edu/icerink/about-us.html

That place looks kinda dope actually.

 

[TimU]

Re: Ivy League standing alone?

Pretty sure 6 is the minimum for an autobid.

If I recall correctly, someone posted a link to a rulebook or something like that, 6 was minimum number (e.g., why the Big Six had to wait for Penn State to join).

Thanks. I really thought that was offered before as a reason they wouldn't be able to split off, but my memory isn't what it used to be. At least I don't think it is.

 

[UncleRay]

Re: Ivy League standing alone?

In some ways, the ECAC is really the Ivy League with a contingent of schools that aspire to that level of academia. QU is an outlier in that they aspire to be a big school which is why they are rumored for Hockey East - join the big and state schools of the east. They'd be a good fit geographically and philosophically, and would compete for league championships from day one. Holy Cross, as an Ivy pretender, I imagine would salivate at joining their league. And they'd fit right in.

 

[alslammerz]

Re: Ivy League standing alone?

The Ivies are tightly constrained on their ability to schedule OOC games. Even so, they have often opened with nonConference games against each other, which constrict their OOC abilities even more. But in a year in which the ECAC does well out of conference, this *helps* the Ivies. Cornell, for example, with a sub-.500 ECAC record (counting the QPac sweep in the playoffs) still almost made the tournament field. When ECAC records outside the conference are undistinguished, the short OOC Ivy records hurt unless you schedule and beat really good teams. But all this means is that the Ivy League has the incentive to see the whole league do well OOC, as they did this year.

Assuming the Ivy League didn't do anything crazy, you figure they'd go with a 20 game schedule which would open up to 9 OOC games. With the addition of two games, and now fomerly-ECAC rivalries being OOC, this would be an improvement for the Ivies.

The other reason why it's not appetizing is the rivalries of the ECAC paradoxically cut across the Ivy/Empire (remember that old timers?) divide. e.g., Harvard and Cornell care a lot about the North Country and not a whit about Brown and Princeton.

Who at Harvard cares more about Clarkson or St. Lawrence than Brown or Princeton? Seriously, other than the hockey fans in the know, which is a small demographic, who are these people?

This also ignores the fact that the competitive disadvantage of having 1/2 the league a month into their season before the Ivies even start would go away, plus the ability to link the hockey schedule into the football/soccer and later on, basketball seasons.

But I do agree that this should only happen IF the league gets poached by Hockey East. Outside of maybe Holy Cross - who don't have a women's hockey team - I don't think there's a good fit for a replacement team. (Well actually Army's a good fit but they come saddled with Air Force and that just doesn't work.)