Re: Imagining League Realignment
Another potential expansion school for the AHA is the University of Rhode Island...
Another potential expansion school for the AHA is the University of Rhode Island...
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Imagining League Realignment
- Thread starter Eph72
- Start date
Re: Imagining League Realignment
Going back to one of my original premises, that this is all ultimately driven by TV money, check out the Big 10 Network: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Ten_Network#Ice_hockey.
Now tell me how the old CCHA or WCHA was going to compete with the Big 10 hockey conference and the BTN? Not a chance.
Going back to one of my original premises, that this is all ultimately driven by TV money, check out the Big 10 Network: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Ten_Network#Ice_hockey.
Now tell me how the old CCHA or WCHA was going to compete with the Big 10 hockey conference and the BTN? Not a chance.
Split-N
All Hail
Re: Imagining League Realignment
1) Personally, I don't think HE is going to dump anybody--least of all Northeastern. Though it may lack championship banners, Northeastern is a pretty big school (approx 20,000 students) and has a a lot of resources. It also sells tickets (more than BC did for the HE tournament last Spring), travels well, and has alums all over the country. Providence is an established and highly respected institution in New England. It has had a few down years in hockey but it will be back. Merrimack and UML seem to compete just fine, thank you. If one or both decide to go to the ECAC, it will be their choice. They won't be pushed.
2) ND seems to need HE more than HE needs ND. The way I read things, if ND wanted to become lodge brothers with the NCHC crowd, it would have been among the charter members. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.
3) Upgrading of the UConn hockey program ain't gonna happen so long as the UConn basketball program remains under current management. Period.
4) Columbia is a pipe dream. NYC media market or not, Columbia hasn't given a rat's tail about athletics since the 1940s and shows no sign of doing so in the foreseeable future, the squash program notwithstanding.
5) It would be nice to get Penn back but there have been many chances for this to happen over the years but all for naught. It could be argued that the emergent Penn State program might prompt Penn to rethink but I really don't think Penn cares much about what Penn State does. A pity. Penn had evolved into an ECAC power before having the rug jerked out from under it in one of the more lamentable chapters in eastern college hockey history.
A point-by-point response, if I may:
1) Personally, I don't think HE is going to dump anybody--least of all Northeastern. Though it may lack championship banners, Northeastern is a pretty big school (approx 20,000 students) and has a a lot of resources. It also sells tickets (more than BC did for the HE tournament last Spring), travels well, and has alums all over the country. Providence is an established and highly respected institution in New England. It has had a few down years in hockey but it will be back. Merrimack and UML seem to compete just fine, thank you. If one or both decide to go to the ECAC, it will be their choice. They won't be pushed.
2) ND seems to need HE more than HE needs ND. The way I read things, if ND wanted to become lodge brothers with the NCHC crowd, it would have been among the charter members. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.
3) Upgrading of the UConn hockey program ain't gonna happen so long as the UConn basketball program remains under current management. Period.
4) Columbia is a pipe dream. NYC media market or not, Columbia hasn't given a rat's tail about athletics since the 1940s and shows no sign of doing so in the foreseeable future, the squash program notwithstanding.
5) It would be nice to get Penn back but there have been many chances for this to happen over the years but all for naught. It could be argued that the emergent Penn State program might prompt Penn to rethink but I really don't think Penn cares much about what Penn State does. A pity. Penn had evolved into an ECAC power before having the rug jerked out from under it in one of the more lamentable chapters in eastern college hockey history.
Re: Imagining League Realignment
That's when my eye's glazed over too. I skipped to the alignment after that and... ugh. Brutal.
Eph, your first 3 responses (and a bunch of others) are negatives and all from fans of the conference most likely to come out of this nonsense without getting shredded. I imagine that the responses from others who read this nonsensical drivel, after sifting through several disappointing rumor threads and a bunch of threads where the quality of their school is eviscerated by former leaguemates, aren't going to find these suggestions very "fun".
Just nuke this thread, reality is "fun" enough.
Every summer we have seen some guy with way too much time on his hands come up with a "realignment" scenario and no one nailed what is happening now.
You lost me at "Big East."
That's when my eye's glazed over too. I skipped to the alignment after that and... ugh. Brutal.
Eph, your first 3 responses (and a bunch of others) are negatives and all from fans of the conference most likely to come out of this nonsense without getting shredded. I imagine that the responses from others who read this nonsensical drivel, after sifting through several disappointing rumor threads and a bunch of threads where the quality of their school is eviscerated by former leaguemates, aren't going to find these suggestions very "fun".
Just nuke this thread, reality is "fun" enough.
Patman
Rodent of Unusual Size
Re: Imagining League Realignment
Yeah, that would be quite impossible. Your comment on UConn is likewise ignorant.
Split-N... it doesn't have much to do with basketball as much as it is institutional focus. Their peers, in their opinion, is not other new england schools but rather other national schools. It'd take one of their peers wading in to the pool before they get interested.
Yeah, that would be quite impossible. Your comment on UConn is likewise ignorant.
Split-N... it doesn't have much to do with basketball as much as it is institutional focus. Their peers, in their opinion, is not other new england schools but rather other national schools. It'd take one of their peers wading in to the pool before they get interested.
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Re: Imagining League Realignment
Resist the temptation?
Doesn't someone have a signature which shows that the NCAA Championship a few years ago got worse ratings that reruns of the World Series of Poker? Who is tempting Hockey East to beef up their TV contract? I think they have a pretty good deal with NESN, getting at least one game a week on TV.
The Big 10 has their own network, so yeah, they'll be on national TV.
The NCHC? I'll concede the point that to a college hockey fan, those are big time programs. What about to the rest of the nation? They're honestly a bunch of no names, and I say that meaning no disrespect whatsoever. I'm just trying to call it like I see it. Before I started following college hockey, I would have guessed that North Dakota had a school, since I assume every state has at least one, and maybe heard of Miami due to their other sports, but none of them are name brand BCS schools. And let's not forget, college hockey doesn't get as good ratings as reruns of the World Series of Poker (assuming I'm remembering the signature correctly). I'm willing to bet a majority of the country won't watch a bunch of no name schools play each other in a niche sport. I hope I'm wrong, cause if I am I think that's good for College Hockey, but I don't think I am.
Given all this, I think Hockey East is in a good situation with respect to TV. I don't know enough about the details of the Big 10 Network and Hockey East's agreement with NESN, but I'd guess at worst the conference has the second best deal in the nation and will continue to for the foreseeable future.
Long Story Short: I don't think BC/BU/UNH/Maine/anyone will decide to go all North Dakota on the rest of the league.
Resist the temptation?
Doesn't someone have a signature which shows that the NCAA Championship a few years ago got worse ratings that reruns of the World Series of Poker? Who is tempting Hockey East to beef up their TV contract? I think they have a pretty good deal with NESN, getting at least one game a week on TV. The Big 10 has their own network, so yeah, they'll be on national TV.
The NCHC? I'll concede the point that to a college hockey fan, those are big time programs. What about to the rest of the nation? They're honestly a bunch of no names, and I say that meaning no disrespect whatsoever. I'm just trying to call it like I see it. Before I started following college hockey, I would have guessed that North Dakota had a school, since I assume every state has at least one, and maybe heard of Miami due to their other sports, but none of them are name brand BCS schools. And let's not forget, college hockey doesn't get as good ratings as reruns of the World Series of Poker (assuming I'm remembering the signature correctly). I'm willing to bet a majority of the country won't watch a bunch of no name schools play each other in a niche sport. I hope I'm wrong, cause if I am I think that's good for College Hockey, but I don't think I am.
Given all this, I think Hockey East is in a good situation with respect to TV. I don't know enough about the details of the Big 10 Network and Hockey East's agreement with NESN, but I'd guess at worst the conference has the second best deal in the nation and will continue to for the foreseeable future.
Long Story Short: I don't think BC/BU/UNH/Maine/anyone will decide to go all North Dakota on the rest of the league.
Re: Imagining League Realignment
Ignorant is one thing I'm not...well suited to the banter and repartee of internet bulletin boards, well that's another thing.
As I've said all along, the breakup of HE is very unlikely...just like the breakup of the WCHA and the CCHA was. And yes hockey is a niche sport that may not do as well as bass fishing, poker or rodeo on national tv. But if turns out the Big 10 deal leads to meaningful tv revenue, and a meaningful recruiting advantage, there will be pressure on everyone else to keep up.
Back to simply imagining, a peer school with tv appeal which has never shown much public interest in hockey is Syracuse. (Please don't tell me that you know they will never start a program. We know how expensive a D-1 program would be. We know what Penn State is spending.) Just saying a super conference with BC, ND, Uconn, and Syracuse in it (as unlikely and impossible as it might be) might begin to interest the tv people.
Ignorant is one thing I'm not...well suited to the banter and repartee of internet bulletin boards, well that's another thing.
As I've said all along, the breakup of HE is very unlikely...just like the breakup of the WCHA and the CCHA was. And yes hockey is a niche sport that may not do as well as bass fishing, poker or rodeo on national tv. But if turns out the Big 10 deal leads to meaningful tv revenue, and a meaningful recruiting advantage, there will be pressure on everyone else to keep up.
Back to simply imagining, a peer school with tv appeal which has never shown much public interest in hockey is Syracuse. (Please don't tell me that you know they will never start a program. We know how expensive a D-1 program would be. We know what Penn State is spending.) Just saying a super conference with BC, ND, Uconn, and Syracuse in it (as unlikely and impossible as it might be) might begin to interest the tv people.
Re: Imagining League Realignment
The NESN deal is fine for what it is for now (although I have no idea what the economics are). The question is whether the Big10 and NCHC schools over the next 5-7 years can milk enough out of tv deals to lead to a meaningful recruiting and competitive advantage.
I agree with you that the NCHC is not composed of big name schools from a national tv point of view. The tv contract that they will be seeking will be some kind of enhanced local/regional Fox Sports kind of deal. But if they can work a deal and get games on tv regularly in the greater Denver, Omaha, Cincinnati/Dayton, and Duluth and Minneapolis areas, and maybe on secondary sports channels like ESPNU or CBS College Sports, and if they are able to create some brand recognition, and generate some revenue and recruiting advantages, which lead to competitive success, this will have an impact on the rest of the college hockey landscape.
The NESN deal is fine for what it is for now (although I have no idea what the economics are). The question is whether the Big10 and NCHC schools over the next 5-7 years can milk enough out of tv deals to lead to a meaningful recruiting and competitive advantage.
I agree with you that the NCHC is not composed of big name schools from a national tv point of view. The tv contract that they will be seeking will be some kind of enhanced local/regional Fox Sports kind of deal. But if they can work a deal and get games on tv regularly in the greater Denver, Omaha, Cincinnati/Dayton, and Duluth and Minneapolis areas, and maybe on secondary sports channels like ESPNU or CBS College Sports, and if they are able to create some brand recognition, and generate some revenue and recruiting advantages, which lead to competitive success, this will have an impact on the rest of the college hockey landscape.
Split-N
All Hail
Re: Imagining League Realignment
I'll concede that the times may well be a-changin, especially with respect to TV but Syracuse has repeatedly (going back to the '60s) spurned blank checks from well-heeled alums, supposedly because well-entrenched basketball interests didn't want any in-season revenue-producing competition. I'm not a 'cuse guy so I'm not going to presume to know what would happen right now if a big check got dangled by a TV network. Even then, I just don't see BC bolting.
I'll concede that the times may well be a-changin, especially with respect to TV but Syracuse has repeatedly (going back to the '60s) spurned blank checks from well-heeled alums, supposedly because well-entrenched basketball interests didn't want any in-season revenue-producing competition. I'm not a 'cuse guy so I'm not going to presume to know what would happen right now if a big check got dangled by a TV network. Even then, I just don't see BC bolting.
Patman
Rodent of Unusual Size
Re: Imagining League Realignment
Fine then, I'll just point out that they haven't and they haven't stated any real intention of doing so and probably need a new facility to be competitive at the likely desired level.
I could point out at least a half dozen issues with UConn... I should know... I lived there for 5 years... do I know what has happened in the last 2... not really, but i'm still in touch with those who have a good idea. The least of the troubles... the desire for a basketball practice facility, desire to upgrade the soccer facility, the inability to upgrade the hockey rink, its abutment to the soccer field itself, its increase in stature of the baseball program and the direction of funds to that program, the semi-latent desire of alumni for lacrosse.... should I continue?
Fine then, I'll just point out that they haven't and they haven't stated any real intention of doing so and probably need a new facility to be competitive at the likely desired level.
I could point out at least a half dozen issues with UConn... I should know... I lived there for 5 years... do I know what has happened in the last 2... not really, but i'm still in touch with those who have a good idea. The least of the troubles... the desire for a basketball practice facility, desire to upgrade the soccer facility, the inability to upgrade the hockey rink, its abutment to the soccer field itself, its increase in stature of the baseball program and the direction of funds to that program, the semi-latent desire of alumni for lacrosse.... should I continue?
Re: Imagining League Realignment
Maybe he got his CU's confused. Adding Columbia would add ANOTHER CU to eastern college hockey.
Sean Pickett
2009 NCAA Champions
Re: Imagining League Realignment
The Ivies can split from the ECAC and form their own hockey league. They will receive an immediate AQ and will also become the most influential hockey conference (along with the B1G when it forms) in the NCAA as they are a multi-sport conference.
BU, BC, Maine, UNH and UVM can kick the rest of the Hockey East teams to the curb and invite RPI (not Rensselaer) to join them in a new super conference, the Super Eastern Hockey Association .
The leftover Hockey East teams can then poach Quinnipiac from the ECAC to get back up to six teams.
The leftover ECAC teams can then invite RIT, Holy Cross and/or Niagara from Atlantic Hockey to join them to get back to six teams.
Unlike the above 'fun' the CCHA looks like it needs 2-3 teams to remain viable and likely need to invite Niagara, Mercyhurst, Robert Morris and/or Canisius to join from Atlantic Hockey.
I see no reasons for the eastern leagues to want Notre Dame or the CCHA to want Alabama-Huntsville.
Sean
The Ivies can split from the ECAC and form their own hockey league. They will receive an immediate AQ and will also become the most influential hockey conference (along with the B1G when it forms) in the NCAA as they are a multi-sport conference.
BU, BC, Maine, UNH and UVM can kick the rest of the Hockey East teams to the curb and invite RPI (not Rensselaer) to join them in a new super conference, the Super Eastern Hockey Association .
The leftover Hockey East teams can then poach Quinnipiac from the ECAC to get back up to six teams.
The leftover ECAC teams can then invite RIT, Holy Cross and/or Niagara from Atlantic Hockey to join them to get back to six teams.
Unlike the above 'fun' the CCHA looks like it needs 2-3 teams to remain viable and likely need to invite Niagara, Mercyhurst, Robert Morris and/or Canisius to join from Atlantic Hockey.
I see no reasons for the eastern leagues to want Notre Dame or the CCHA to want Alabama-Huntsville.
Sean
Re: Imagining League Realignment
When you see that 33 million of BTN's 73 million households are in Canada...it puts the addition of Big Ten hockey in a different light.
When you see that 33 million of BTN's 73 million households are in Canada...it puts the addition of Big Ten hockey in a different light.
Re: Imagining League Realignment
I think you and Gentry need to chill out. Its an interesting and well thought out proposal by EPH. While I don't remember your particular take on the issue, all of us read constantly how the Big 10 hockey conference would never, ever, EVER happen in our lifetimes. Not to mention what happened to the WCHA. If BU and BC felt there was money to be made by ditching Hockey East and hitching up with Notre Dame in a new conference they'd do so in a minute and not give a rat's arse how Merrimac or Northeastern felt about it. Money talks. I don't like that fact, but it is what it is. EPH's realignment made good sense as the have's and the have nots will separate from each other just like they do in football and hoops. The trick is how can the have nots remain viable. Getting some regional harmony and competitive balance in the smaller conferences that are left is key, and while this is all hypothetical this proposal seems to accomplish those goals.
I think you and Gentry need to chill out. Its an interesting and well thought out proposal by EPH. While I don't remember your particular take on the issue, all of us read constantly how the Big 10 hockey conference would never, ever, EVER happen in our lifetimes. Not to mention what happened to the WCHA. If BU and BC felt there was money to be made by ditching Hockey East and hitching up with Notre Dame in a new conference they'd do so in a minute and not give a rat's arse how Merrimac or Northeastern felt about it. Money talks. I don't like that fact, but it is what it is. EPH's realignment made good sense as the have's and the have nots will separate from each other just like they do in football and hoops. The trick is how can the have nots remain viable. Getting some regional harmony and competitive balance in the smaller conferences that are left is key, and while this is all hypothetical this proposal seems to accomplish those goals.
Nick Papagiorgio
Holding court
Re: Imagining League Realignment
A lot of people drop acid "just for fun" too. I get the feeling the author of this thread might have done both of these "just for fun" things today.
A lot of people drop acid "just for fun" too. I get the feeling the author of this thread might have done both of these "just for fun" things today.
Nick Papagiorgio
Holding court
Re: Imagining League Realignment
This was a well written post that I happen to agree with.
Didn't the Frozen Four trail behind the National Dog Show for ratings one year?
Resist the temptation?
The Big 10 has their own network, so yeah, they'll be on national TV.
The NCHC? I'll concede the point that to a college hockey fan, those are big time programs. What about to the rest of the nation? They're honestly a bunch of no names, and I say that meaning no disrespect whatsoever. I'm just trying to call it like I see it. Before I started following college hockey, I would have guessed that North Dakota had a school, since I assume every state has at least one, and maybe heard of Miami due to their other sports, but none of them are name brand BCS schools. And let's not forget, college hockey doesn't get as good ratings as reruns of the World Series of Poker (assuming I'm remembering the signature correctly). I'm willing to bet a majority of the country won't watch a bunch of no name schools play each other in a niche sport. I hope I'm wrong, cause if I am I think that's good for College Hockey, but I don't think I am.
Given all this, I think Hockey East is in a good situation with respect to TV. I don't know enough about the details of the Big 10 Network and Hockey East's agreement with NESN, but I'd guess at worst the conference has the second best deal in the nation and will continue to for the foreseeable future.
Long Story Short: I don't think BC/BU/UNH/Maine/anyone will decide to go all North Dakota on the rest of the league.
This was a well written post that I happen to agree with.
Didn't the Frozen Four trail behind the National Dog Show for ratings one year?
Re: Imagining League Realignment
+1. Last I heard Canada still has a fair amount of players playing in the NCAA for the Big Ten to continue to recruit from. The BTN makes it easier for schools like OSU and PSU to recruit Canadians and the benefit they will recieve watching their kid play games on television. Currently, no other conference in America has that visability.
+1. Last I heard Canada still has a fair amount of players playing in the NCAA for the Big Ten to continue to recruit from. The BTN makes it easier for schools like OSU and PSU to recruit Canadians and the benefit they will recieve watching their kid play games on television. Currently, no other conference in America has that visability.
Re: Imagining League Realignment
It would put things in a different light if it were even close to being true. There are only 35M people living in Canada (not households), so your data is completely wrong. Just for some perspective, there are about 70M people living in the big ten footprint, 25M households, and probably 20M or so that get the big ten network (and the big ten network is required programming on a low level tier for virtually all cable/satellite providers.) Your claim is wrong on so many levels I don't need to stress the folly of getting data from a gopher.
It would put things in a different light if it were even close to being true. There are only 35M people living in Canada (not households), so your data is completely wrong. Just for some perspective, there are about 70M people living in the big ten footprint, 25M households, and probably 20M or so that get the big ten network (and the big ten network is required programming on a low level tier for virtually all cable/satellite providers.) Your claim is wrong on so many levels I don't need to stress the folly of getting data from a gopher.
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Shirtless Guy
Old Dirty Basterd
Re: Imagining League Realignment
Quick google...sounds like Canada has about 9M households that purchase cable/dish tv.
Re: Imagining League Realignment
Chill...I might have misread the following...The network currently reaches approximately 40 million households nationwide and is available up to an estimated 73 million households in the United States and Canada.
Regardless, what about the primary premise of Canada being a HUGE untapped Big Ten Network market for viewers with the potential of big recruiting opportunities is wrong?
Chill...I might have misread the following...The network currently reaches approximately 40 million households nationwide and is available up to an estimated 73 million households in the United States and Canada.
Regardless, what about the primary premise of Canada being a HUGE untapped Big Ten Network market for viewers with the potential of big recruiting opportunities is wrong?