Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Agree. It would take, what? Maybe 1% of the Federal Budget to actually secure the border?

So your plan to fix the border is to throw billions of dollars a year more at it...billions more than we're already spending? Are you nuts? Do you know what the ongoing interest will be on that money alone? It didn't take you long to show big govt conservative colors.

See this is exactly the kind of big govt thinking where the hypocracy comes in. You have your special interest pet project of a paltry multi billion permanent increase...and then you are supposedly for small government and everyone else needs to cut spending while you spend more.

OK...Bob. Now are you really for border security or for just spending more...

I absolutely believe being directly responsible for causing mass violence on Americans and others is criminal. If the ATF has done this, those actions are criminal. Indeed, the ATF as we speak is being investigated. I fully support the guilty in such a case be brought to justice. As they should be. As a related note, many felt that those responsible for the Iraq war should be similarly investigated.

Now let's look at the gun lobby. They are singlehandedly resulting in the endangering of many lives and our borders with outcomes similar to the ATF's investigated actions.

With the gun lobby, justice isn't even on the table for conservatives. Neither is taking action to stop the same type of extension of violence for which the ATF investigated. In fact, conservative support for the gun lobby is strong even as this action is in direct conflict with another red meat issue border security. Regardless, conservatives will always support the gun lobby...because in terms of ideology, the gun lobby is more important than border security and protecting lives combined.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

So your plan to fix the border is to throw billions of dollars a year more at it...billions more than we're already spending? Are you nuts? Do you know what the ongoing interest will be on that money alone? It didn't take you long to show big govt conservative colors.

See this is exactly the kind of big govt thinking where the hypocracy comes in. You have your special interest pet project of a paltry multi billion permanent increase...and then you are supposedly for small government and everyone else needs to cut spending while you spend more.

OK...Bob. Now are you really for border security or for just spending more...

You just keep beating the same old dead horse, don't you? I'll give you credit, you've got stamina if nothing else. As I've said before, come up with a halfway decent argument against securing the border and maybe we can discuss things more substantively. Budget concerns just don't cut the mustard, and it's obvious you're just using that to avoid addressing the issue more substantively.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

You just keep beating the same old dead horse, don't you? I'll give you credit, you've got stamina if nothing else. As I've said before, come up with a halfway decent argument against securing the border and maybe we can discuss things more substantively. Budget concerns just don't cut the mustard, and it's obvious you're just using that to avoid addressing the issue more substantively.

Because I've answered this question over and over.

I have stated I think its a problem, yet like most Americans, I believe its not the country's most important one. That's reserved for national workforce and entrepreneurship competitiveness and its outcome the economy. Like most Americans, I'm for creative solutions, yet like most Americans, I'm not an expert. The only solution you seem to be behind is throwing 1% of all national spending at it...which is unacceptable in my book.

I'd ask you again if you're really for border security or for just spending more based on my post below.

But you don't seem to respond to others questions when they're tough and as such, I think you've already answered this one.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

So your plan to fix the border is to throw billions of dollars a year more at it...billions more than we're already spending? Are you nuts? Do you know what the ongoing interest will be on that money alone? It didn't take you long to show big govt conservative colors.

Plan? Jeez. I just pulled a number out of my butt. You're judging that thought experiment against some pretty lofty false expectations which you just made up. Border security is not my "pet project," but I do think it ought to be among the many goals of the US government. I simply stated a fact: a much smaller government than we have today could spend $30B (~1% of today's budget) on border security. The smaller government piece is RIGHT THERE IN THE STATEMENT. First, make the government smaller - check. Then, devote a greater percentage of the smaller budget (remember, the government is smaller now, just in case you forgot that part already) to border security - check. Wow - smaller government AND more spending on border security. I know that's some complicated math for you, but at least try this time?

 

[Kepler]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

We might make more headway if we separated the big/small government issue and the security/openness issue and the law/amnesty issue. While no doubt they overlap, they are different things.

For instance, if there was a magical way to stop violent criminals at the border yet let in poor people who were just looking for opportunity, that would change some minds. "Immigration" is too big, and assumes too much.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Plan? Jeez. I just pulled a number out of my butt. You're judging that thought experiment against some pretty lofty false expectations which you just made up. Border security is not my "pet project," but I do think it ought to be among the many goals of the US government. I simply stated a fact: a much smaller government than we have today could spend $30B (~1% of today's budget) on border security. The smaller government piece is RIGHT THERE IN THE STATEMENT. First, make the government smaller - check. Then, devote a greater percentage of the smaller budget (remember, the government is smaller now, just in case you forgot that part already) to border security - check. Wow - smaller government AND more spending on border security. I know that's some complicated math for you, but at least try this time?

Not even the most aggressive big govt proponents say lets have spending increases across the board. No they say let's cut somebody elses spending...while they advocate billions more themselves.

Everyone has pet projects. This is a big govt solution to yours. My post stands.

We might make more headway if we separated the big/small government issue and the security/openness issue and the law/amnesty issue. While no doubt they overlap, they are different things.

Of course they are.

But the solution is not, by your logic...extreme censorship is acceptable as a solution to protecting the family. Afterall, freedom of speech and family values are different issues.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Plan? Jeez. I just pulled a number out of my butt. You're judging that thought experiment against some pretty lofty false expectations which you just made up. Border security is not my "pet project," but I do think it ought to be among the many goals of the US government. I simply stated a fact: a much smaller government than we have today could spend $30B (~1% of today's budget) on border security. The smaller government piece is RIGHT THERE IN THE STATEMENT. First, make the government smaller - check. Then, devote a greater percentage of the smaller budget (remember, the government is smaller now, just in case you forgot that part already) to border security - check. Wow - smaller government AND more spending on border security. I know that's some complicated math for you, but at least try this time?

He's been beating this same dead horse for a long time. Somehow he thinks saying it's going to cost a bit of money will just torpedo any other perspective on the issue. He doesn't want a substantive discussion of the issue.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

My post stands.

Stands? Your post can't even hold its head up and has sour milk dribbling down its chin...

No matter how much you wish it to be true, believing that the government spends too much money is NOT mutually exclusive with also believing that the spending priorities are out of whack.

Let's reverse the situation: Suppose a liberal was advocating for more overall government spending by X during an economic slump but also wanted to trim 0.1X from the military budget. Now imagine that I went around braying that this person shouldn't be considered a Keynesian because he didn't want to simultaneously increase spending on every single existing program. I would look just as foolish as you do now, arguing that people can only be considered Small Government types if they want so slash every single existing program.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

In a further caving in to illegal immigrants, Obama announces defacto amnesty for many of them, just weeks after saying he wouldn't end-run Congress on this. Nothing like a blatant pander to the Hispanic community as he gears up to try to get four more years in the White House. He just gets worse and worse.

http://tucsoncitizen.com/view-from-baja-arizona/2011/08/19/obama-halts-deportations-300000-to-get-amnesty/

 

[Foxton]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

In a further caving in to illegal immigrants, Obama announces defacto amnesty for many of them, just weeks after saying he wouldn't end-run Congress on this. Nothing like a blatant pander to the Hispanic community as he gears up to try to get four more years in the White House. He just gets worse and worse.

http://tucsoncitizen.com/view-from-baja-arizona/2011/08/19/obama-halts-deportations-300000-to-get-amnesty/

Sure fire way to get elected, create a base of people unable to vote.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Sure fire way to get elected, create a base of people unable to vote.

Why would they be unable to vote? In most places, you don't even have to show an <S>ID</S> proof that you paid a poll tax.

 

[Foxton]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Why would they be unable to vote? In most places, you don't even have to show an <S>ID</S> proof that you paid a poll tax.

Depends on the state, states rights and all that..
http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=16602

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

In a further caving in to illegal immigrants, Obama announces defacto amnesty for many of them, just weeks after saying he wouldn't end-run Congress on this. Nothing like a blatant pander to the Hispanic community as he gears up to try to get four more years in the White House. He just gets worse and worse.

http://tucsoncitizen.com/view-from-baja-arizona/2011/08/19/obama-halts-deportations-300000-to-get-amnesty/

Under the changes announced Thursday, senior White House officials said the government will review 300,000 pending immigration cases one by one to look for low-priority cases that could be thrown out under a process known as “prosecutorial discretion.”

I know getting legal terminology correct is hard for reporters, but that's not even close to what prosecutorial discretion means. Given that it appears they're throwing a partial quote in there, there's some serious context missing.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

I know getting legal terminology correct is hard for reporters, but that's not even close to what prosecutorial discretion means. Given that it appears they're throwing a partial quote in there, there's some serious context missing.

Shhh. You are ruining circular reasoning with logic again!

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Shhh. You are ruining circular reasoning with logic again!

True, this talk of prosecutorial discretion is a thin veil over Obama's efforts to in effect grant amnesty to large numbers of illegals. Glad to see that you see through that attempted subterfuge.

 

[Rover]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

I like it, and not just because it drives people like Bob Gray nuts!

While all illegals shouldn't be here, the bottom line is with limited resources you need to prioritize who goes and who doesn't. Criminals get booted first. Not sure why anybod would object to that, unless....

I was listening to the radio today, and some righty had the hilarious notion that 11M illegal immigrants would just voluntarily depart the country if we cracked down on them. I think his idea, which was a little sketchy, is that everybody is given some sort of card to prove they can work (not sure how much this would cost, nor how much of an improvement over current verification since he didn't bother to cover those points). Once they find out they can't work, they'd all leave the next day (his quote, not mine). So, I guess in conservative fantasyland there's no point in prioritizing criminals because everybody would leave tomorrow if *only* we had more conservatives running things. Oh, no mention about why this didn't happen when we did have conservatives running things circa 2001-2007.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

What's more likely, Bob. That prosecutors are being told to utilize their discretion to make sure their time is more fully utilized and the reporter misunderstood whatever legal concept was being described to them? Or that this is some blanket amnesty program being run by Obama to do an end run around Congress?

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor (among others).

More likely the latter, given how Obama goes about this stuff and his regular catering to the illegals. But you're right, he may not be doing it out of malice. Or, more likely, doing it to pander to Hispanic voters. The politics of this are so obvious, even liberals like you and Rover can I'm sure see the political angles in this run-up to the next election.

 

[Patman]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

What's more likely, Bob. That prosecutors are being told to utilize their discretion to make sure their time is more fully utilized and the reporter misunderstood whatever legal concept was being described to them? Or that this is some blanket amnesty program being run by Obama to do an end run around Congress?

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor (among others).

You know, as much as I'd like to assume he's stupid, we know he's been looking to do this for awhile. This is how they operate.... try to look moderate to the cameras and do all the die-hard liberal/socialist stuff when people aren't looking. This has been a distinct hallmark of this administration. They've decided to do by executive order that they can't get through congress. Health initiatives, declaring dust as a pollutant, etc. The march continues.

----

Foxton, you think they don't vote?

In any case, I'm still in wonder and shock as to why we need a massive underclass in this society at a point and time where we're seeing a depressed unskilled labor market. So, we employ the illegals and give welfare to Americans who can't get jobs? We do understand that importation of an underclass is unsustainable, yes?

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

More likely the latter, given how Obama goes about this stuff and his regular catering to the illegals. But you're right, he may not be doing it out of malice. Or, more likely, doing it to pander to Hispanic voters. The politics of this are so obvious, even liberals like you and Rover can I'm sure see the political angles in this run-up to the next election.

Because the illegal vote's so big...

And as I've said in the past, I'm generally on your side when it comes to immigration issues, so I really don't know why you continue to call me a liberal, unless it's simply because that just isn't even close to being a top priority when assessing candidates for the 2012 election.

But forgive me if I don't believe a Tucson newspaper as being completely unbiased on this issue. And I've learned over the last few years that reporters never get legal stories right, and since this guy doesn't appear to understand even a relatively simple concept like prosecutorial discretion, I'm even more skeptical of his assertions.

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

This is how they operate...

They? Now it's a conspiracy?

try to look moderate to the cameras and do all the die-hard liberal/socialist stuff when people aren't looking.

If that's not the kettle calling the pot black...how can you even attempt to say that with a straight face after the crap Bush Jr. pulled on a national scale and governors like Scott Walker are doing at the state levels?