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Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

5mn_Major said:
Pretty much a consensus out there that this is stretching what is an arbitrary law to begin with and ignoring any fact basis that might have existed. To me it smells of big govt and it doesn't give much hope that other AZ laws are being approached fairly.

Example...Steve Forbes, Forbes CEO and editor-in-chief, is not exactly a leftie:

Tucson's rejected ethnic studies praised by audit
By AMANDA LEE MYERS , 06.17.11, 02:57 PM EDT
Forbes.com

PHOENIX -- An audit of a controversial ethnic studies program in Tucson paints a dramatically different picture from an announcement by the state's education chief.

Superintendent of Public Instruction John Huppenthal says the ethnic studies program in the Tucson Unified School District is illegal for advocating ethnic solidarity among Latinos and promoting resentment toward white people.

He gave the district two months to make changes or face losing 10 percent of its annual state funding, or about $15 million.

But the audit by Dallas-based Cambium Learning Group effusively praises the program, saying that there was no evidence that it promotes racial resentment.

The audit says that "students are taught to be accepting of multiple ethnicities of people" and that "resentment does not exist in the context of these courses."
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Just because an article appears in Forbes doesn't mean that Steve Forbes endorses what it says. I think you're confused on your reference, though I can't be sure without a link.


So some group I've never heard of in Dallas likes the program. Guess all us in Arizona should also, if a few Texans do.
 
Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Bob Gray said:
Just because an article appears in Forbes doesn't mean that Steve Forbes endorses what it says. I think you're confused on your reference, though I can't be sure without a link.

So some group I've never heard of in Dallas likes the program. Guess all us in Arizona should also, if a few Texans do.
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Look it up newspapers all over the country...and in Arizona agree.

The point is that AZ put in place a totally subjective law (as in not tied to a quantitative measure such as car MPH, but rather the opinion of select persons) that had a risk of being abused and racist. There was one step, an audit, put in place to limit abuse...but unfortunately that audit was put in the hands of the one person at the source of that risk.

In this case, the audit shockingly backfired and effusively praised the education program. Yet somehow the decision went against the facts designed to underpin it...in the grand scheme of things, it does look like abuse, racism or both.

I don't mind SB 1070 as long as its supported by AZ taxpayer moneys...but in this case, the state deserves to get the pants sued off it.
 
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Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

5mn_Major said:
Look it up newspapers all over the country...and in Arizona agree.

The point is that AZ put in place a totally subjective law (as in not tied to a quantitative measure such as car MPH, but rather the opinion of select persons) that had a risk of being abused and racist. There was one step, an audit, put in place to limit abuse...but unfortunately that audit was put in the hands of the one person at the source of that risk.

In this case, the audit shockingly backfired and effusively praised the education program. Yet somehow the decision went against the facts designed to underpin it...in the grand scheme of things, it does look like abuse, racism or both.

I don't mind SB 1070 as long as its supported by AZ taxpayer moneys...but in this case, the state deserves to get the pants sued off it.
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So, you cite Steve Forbes' support for your position, then avoid it by claiming newspapers around the country say something. Pretty evasive there.

So you're saying all subjective laws are wrong? Wow, so you have issue with all sorts of laws that require judgment and don't have a definitive quantitative measure like mph. You are living in a fantasy world. I don't really care much about that particular law, but your criticisms of Arizona when you know little about the subject are misplaced at best. I could be offended by yet another dumb stereotype of Arizona, if I didn't know this is just how you are and I shouldn't expect anything else.
 
Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

5mn_Major said:
Pretty much a consensus out there that this is stretching what is an arbitrary law to begin with and ignoring any fact basis that might have existed. To me it smells of big govt and it doesn't give much hope that other AZ laws are being approached fairly.

Example...Steve Forbes, Forbes CEO and editor-in-chief, is not exactly a leftie:

Tucson's rejected ethnic studies praised by audit
By AMANDA LEE MYERS , 06.17.11, 02:57 PM EDT
Forbes.com

PHOENIX -- An audit of a controversial ethnic studies program in Tucson paints a dramatically different picture from an announcement by the state's education chief.

Superintendent of Public Instruction John Huppenthal says the ethnic studies program in the Tucson Unified School District is illegal for advocating ethnic solidarity among Latinos and promoting resentment toward white people.

He gave the district two months to make changes or face losing 10 percent of its annual state funding, or about $15 million.

But the audit by Dallas-based Cambium Learning Group effusively praises the program, saying that there was no evidence that it promotes racial resentment.

The audit says that "students are taught to be accepting of multiple ethnicities of people" and that "resentment does not exist in the context of these courses."
Click to expand...



From Google: "Cambium Learning is the leading educational company focused exclusively on at-risk and special student populations."

In other words, a group that is pre-disposed to favoring Mexican racists.

Look... the fact that people are even broaching it means that there's something going on here that's different from the standard.

http://www.tucsondailyindependent.com/2011/06/ethnic-studies-controversy-does-not-end.html

Of course it may have something to do with assigning texts that are aligned with acceptable leftist racism. Lets not pretend that the American left is against racism... no, its against the racism from certain quarters. From other quarters its considered acceptable and normal... just part of the process.'

Do you really think there'd be screaming from the ethno-centric (read as Mexican/Hispanic and their supporters) supporters if the curriculum were normal every day fare. It teaches a preferred history with a preferred political slant. Nothing more, nothing less. It just happens to share the same bent as those who are also in the industry of providing educational materials. If you've spent time on a university you'd get an idea of what they're like.

-----

Remember, its a "consensus" when liberals agree with each other.
 
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Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Patman said:
From Google: "Cambium Learning is the leading educational company focused exclusively on at-risk and special student populations."

In other words, a group that is pre-disposed to favoring Mexican racists.
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Or in the usual context with which those words are used in schools, students who need help.

Look... the fact that people are even broaching it means that there's something going on here that's different from the standard.

http://www.tucsondailyindependent.com/2011/06/ethnic-studies-controversy-does-not-end.html

Of course it may have something to do with assigning texts that are aligned with acceptable leftist racism. Lets not pretend that the American left is against racism... no, its against the racism from certain quarters. From other quarters its considered acceptable and normal... just part of the process.'
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This is the only justification this link gives to why this is apparently racist. Only thing I can find is that it misuses how the book critiques it's subject by simply saying it's marxist. When it's a marxist critique.

Pedagogy of the Oppressed, by Paulo Freire is the foundation for TUSD's Mexican American/Raza Studies classes. His book is one of the most commonly assigned texts in colleges of education across the country and its ideological underpinnings are Marxist, pure and simple.
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If you've spent time on a university you'd get an idea of what they're like.
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I'm sorry, have you ignored the Texas board of education? Hey, somebody has to stand up to these experts right? (Rebuttal)How about all the law makers trying to undermine science education for K-12 with their theology across the country? With strengths and weaknesses. :rolleyes:

Oh wait, it's universities that are doing it.

Remember, its a "consensus" when liberals agree with each other.
Click to expand...
Remember, blindly stating as fact what you believe without supporting it is "evidence".

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/edu...cle_b4c42235-22d5-5b74-ade9-ceeb5afdd628.html
Huppenthal's decision comes after a months-long investigation that included an audit, which said there was no evidence indicating that any class in TUSD violated the state law.

"In most cases, quite the opposite is true," the audit, which was released Wednesday, read. "Consider, if classes promoted resentment or ethnic solidarity, then evidence of an ineffective learning community would exist within each school aligned with the Mexican American Studies department. That was not the case. Every school and every classroom visited by the auditors affirmed that these learning communities support a climate conducive to student achievement."
Click to expand...
 
Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Bob Gray said:
So, you cite Steve Forbes' support for your position, then avoid it by claiming newspapers around the country say something. Pretty evasive there.
Click to expand...

So the article inferring this was a bad deal came from Forbes.com. Not a left wing outlet. As a matter of fact, fairly conservative. Tying Steve Forbes as editor in chief reinforces that fact. What else is there to say?

Bob Gray said:
So you're saying all subjective laws are wrong? Wow, so you have issue with all sorts of laws that require judgment and don't have a definitive quantitative measure like mph. You are living in a fantasy world. I don't really care much about that particular law, but your criticisms of Arizona when you know little about the subject are misplaced at best. I could be offended by yet another dumb stereotype of Arizona, if I didn't know this is just how you are and I shouldn't expect anything else.
Click to expand...

See here your dancing around the issue. Subjective laws are wrong. I am saying an audit is important because it provides a fact basis to something which otherwise can be opinion.

I still don't see any 'dumb stereotypes' nor criticisms of the state of Arizona. But unless we get more information, it appears that we have here big government at work; a govt official taking legal action with only public facts to refute him; and the outcome that only a specific minority is targeted.
 
Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

5mn_Major said:
So the article inferring this was a bad deal came from Forbes.com. Not a left wing outlet. As a matter of fact, fairly conservative. Tying Steve Forbes as editor in chief reinforces that fact. What else is there to say?



See here your dancing around the issue. Subjective laws are wrong. I am saying an audit is important because it provides a fact basis to something which otherwise can be opinion.

I still don't see any 'dumb stereotypes' nor criticisms of the state of Arizona. But unless we get more information, it appears that we have here big government at work; a govt official taking legal action with only public facts to refute him; and the outcome that only a specific minority is targeted.
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Unless we get more information, then you make your conclusion. I suggest you get information, then make conclusions. You assume an audit provides a fact basis. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but people can do audits and find all sorts of things, depending on what their agendas are. And as Patman notes, this group that did the audit would appear likely to be biased. But, biased in the direction you favor, so you choose to take it as fact.

Glad to see you now realize that Steve Forbes didn't endorse or write the article you reference, though you still can't just come out and admit you misrepresented it.
 
Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

LynahFan said:
Really? What's an objective definition of assault? Blackmail? Etc?
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An act which is intended to place the victim in apprehension of immediate physical harm.

Blackmail isn't generally a legal term, however extortion is generally defined as "compelling an act of another through the use of threat, fear, or coercion."

Those are both objective definitions. now if you're asking you you prove those things objectively, well, that's a whole different can of worms.

Why yes, I am being pedantic.
 
Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Bob Gray said:
Unless we get more information, then you make your conclusion. I suggest you get information, then make conclusions. You assume an audit provides a fact basis. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but people can do audits and find all sorts of things, depending on what their agendas are. And as Patman notes, this group that did the audit would appear likely to be biased. But, biased in the direction you favor, so you choose to take it as fact.
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He did no such thing other than provide a partial quote from a google summary and somehow link that to mexican racists.

But I suppose a partial quote is all that's required for you to claim "bias" and throwout their findings.
 
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Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Bob Gray said:
And as Patman notes, this group that did the audit would appear likely to be biased. But, biased in the direction you favor, so you choose to take it as fact.
Click to expand...

And Patman is a paragon of unbiasedness?

Otherwise, there's a joke somewhere in here about using a biased source to make a commentary about others using biased sources.
 
Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

unofan said:
And Patman is a paragon of unbiasedness?

Otherwise, there's a joke somewhere in here about using a biased source to make a commentary about others using biased sources.
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Probably not, as none of us are, though I'd argue some try harder to be than others. But I don't see you disputing what he says, just kicking dust up about the messenger.

I guess you buy into 5mn's premise that if a person can find a study by someone saying a certain thing, no one else should question that study or whether there is other legitimate information out there that might not agree with that study. As I typed that, I have to admit, you're too intelligent to buy into such nonsense, so I guess you're just looking to stir the pot a bit or something.
 
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Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Bob Gray said:
Probably not, as none of us are, though I'd argue some try harder to be than others. But I don't see you disputing what he says, just kicking dust up about the messenger.
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Oh comeon Bob, you set that one up on a tee; you can't expect me to let all the easy ones go by without taking a swing.

Admittedly, I could have opted for the safe play and put the smiley face after it, but I thought using paragon and patman in the same sentence was already none-too-subtle.
 
Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Bob Gray said:
I guess you buy into 5mn's premise that if a person can find a study by someone saying a certain thing, no one else should question that study or whether there is other legitimate information out there that might not agree with that study. As I typed that, I have to admit, you're too intelligent to buy into such nonsense, so I guess you're just looking to stir the pot a bit or something.
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Bob, the law was put out with a handful of other legislation. What was the one thing they had in common? They all negatively targeted Hispanics. So immediately it leads one to want to keep a bit of a watch.

But the opinion the auditor reached was the exact opposite of Huppenthal ruled. I have no problem that his point of view is the exact opposite of what the independent audit came up with...what I have a problem with is that it didn't result in further fact finding, dialog or compromise. It resulted in him instantly ruling the program broke the law and ignoring the independent perspective on the matter. There's little question he took no effort to get to the bottom of any discrepencies. Whether true or not...from the outside it looks like potential corruption, racism and/or government overreach.

LynahFan said:
Really? What's an objective definition of assault? Blackmail? Etc?
Click to expand...

Sorry that was a mistypo.
 
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