Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Will you, or will you not, answer the question of what are these amnesty plans that the administration has as alluded to in the ICE letter. This is the 3rd time you've been asked.

Ask your buddy Obama. He's smart enough to not say the "A" word, but you know that.

Now, back to the ICE union letter. It really is staggering that the representatives of the rank-and-file ICE workers unanimously issued a public vote of no confidence in the top ICE leaders, and their letter is a shocking window into why the border here in Arizona is the shambles that it is. But, sadly, many like you are fooled by the public posturing that passes for border enforcement in the Obama administration.

 

[Rover]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Ask your buddy Obama. He's smart enough to not say the "A" word, but you know that.

Now, back to the ICE union letter. It really is staggering that the representatives of the rank-and-file ICE workers unanimously issued a public vote of no confidence in the top ICE leaders, and their letter is a shocking window into why the border here in Arizona is the shambles that it is. But, sadly, many like you are fooled by the public posturing that passes for border enforcement in the Obama administration.

No, I'm asking you. The crux of your argument, and the letter writer's argument, is that Obama supports amnesty and that's why the border is policed the way it is. What in anything he wants to enact strikes of amnesty to you, even if he hasn't uttered "the word" because he's "smart enough to not say the A word"?

You sure seem to have trouble backing up your assertions on this issue.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

No, I'm asking you. The crux of your argument, and the letter writer's argument, is that Obama supports amnesty and that's why the border is policed the way it is. What in anything he wants to enact strikes of amnesty to you, even if he hasn't uttered "the word" because he's "smart enough to not say the A word"?

You sure seem to have trouble backing up your assertions on this issue.

I can read and use critical thinking. This is really an easy one to connect the dots on, if one wants to of course.

So, you know more than 7,000 ICE agents regarding border issues. Quite a fellow you are. So, I take it you disagree with the views of 7,000 ICE agents who work on the border every day?

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

I can read and use critical thinking. This is really an easy one to connect the dots on, if one wants to of course.

So, you know more than 7,000 ICE agents regarding border issues. Quite a fellow you are. So, I take it you disagree with the views of 7,000 ICE agents who work on the border every day?

Whose to say that the council represents these 7000 agents any more than the head of the department? To me the whole thing smells of politics.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Whose to say that the council represents these 7000 agents any more than the head of the department? To me the whole thing smells of politics.

Oh, maybe the first sentence of the letter, where it says it was the union council and all the local representatives? But, you get a bonus for being a little more innovative than Rover in trying to steer away from the substance of the letter. I suggest reading the letter.

 

[Rover]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

I can read and use critical thinking. This is really an easy one to connect the dots on, if one wants to of course.

So, you know more than 7,000 ICE agents regarding border issues. Quite a fellow you are. So, I take it you disagree with the views of 7,000 ICE agents who work on the border every day?

Connect the dots for us then. This one should be a layup for you.

Yes, I disagree with the view that the border situation is they way it is due to some unproven, unspoken, Administration plot to grant amnesty to all illegal aliens. The burden of proof of this crackpot theory is on the ICE and yourself. Accept the challenge....

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Connect the dots for us then. This one should be a layup for you.

Yes, I disagree with the view that the border situation is they way it is due to some unproven, unspoken, Administration plot to grant amnesty to all illegal aliens. The burden of proof of this crackpot theory is on the ICE and yourself. Accept the challenge....

Let's see. Buy in Rover's unfounded theories, or believe 7,000 ICE agents. Tough choice there!

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Oh, maybe the first sentence of the letter, where it says it was the union council and all the local representatives? But, you get a bonus for being a little more innovative than Rover in trying to steer away from the substance of the letter. I suggest reading the letter.

Just because someone has a different point of view...doesn't mean they haven't read about the issue.

And no, I automatically believe that one group (the council) has the holy grail to reality and the other side (those in charge) is out of touch...just because an article says so.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Just because someone has a different point of view...doesn't mean they haven't read about the issue.

And no, I automatically believe that one group (the council) has the holy grail to reality and the other side (those in charge) is out of touch...just because an article says so.

No, but when the very first sentence answers your very basic question you ask me, it does call into question whether you read the letter at issue. And again, it's not an article, it's a letter from the ICE union representing 7,000 ICE workers.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

No, but when the very first sentence answers your very basic question you ask me, it does call into question whether you read the letter at issue. And again, it's not an article, it's a letter from the ICE union representing 7,000 ICE workers.

I understand that. But who do you think would have a better idea of how to execute on WalMart's objectives...WalMart's CEO or WalMart's workers union?

We don't have enough info to judge based on one article and I think rovers points are still valid. IMO

 

[goldy_331]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

I understand that. But who do you think would have a better idea of how to execute on WalMart's objectives...WalMart's CEO or WalMart's workers union?

We don't have enough info to judge based on one article and I think rovers points are still valid. IMO

How about if WalMart's CEO is a political appointee with no experience actually running a WalMart? And what if the union is not a union of low level shelf stockers and cash register operators, but law enforcement professionals with a passion for their job?

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Good grief. Amnesty is not something that needs to be actively granted. All the president has to do is sit on his hands, and voila - amnesty. He can do that through executive policy, no legislative agenda required.

The fact that ICE does almost no active patrolling (90% of cases come through normal law enforcement) means that illegal aliens already HAVE de facto amnesty, so Obama "grants amnesty" simply by doing nothing about it.

And I would say the same thing about a Republican president - this is not a political issue, it's a rule of law issue.

 

[Rover]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Good grief. Amnesty is not something that needs to be actively granted. All the president has to do is sit on his hands, and voila - amnesty. He can do that through executive policy, no legislative agenda required.

The fact that ICE does almost no active patrolling (90% of cases come through normal law enforcement) means that illegal aliens already HAVE de facto amnesty, so Obama "grants amnesty" simply by doing nothing about it.

And I would say the same thing about a Republican president - this is not a political issue, it's a rule of law issue.

Yes, it is. Amnesty means you have legal rights like a citizen has. These people don't. They can legally be detained for being here illegally (which I don't have a problem with) and they can be deported. Under amnesty, neither of these things would be true. Your whole premise is faulty, regardless of whether its a Republican or Democratic President in office.


Major, I've asked Bob 4 times to site where the President supports amnesty, and he has yet to answer. Maybe that's because the Limbaugh show hasn't come on yet, but whatever the reason he seems incapable of defending his own assertions. My guess is because he can't.

 

[Rover]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

How about if WalMart's CEO is a political appointee with no experience actually running a WalMart? And what if the union is not a union of low level shelf stockers and cash register operators, but law enforcement professionals with a passion for their job?

Do you have proof of any of this as it pertains to this situation?

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

How about if WalMart's CEO is a political appointee with no experience actually running a WalMart? And what if the union is not a union of low level shelf stockers and cash register operators, but law enforcement professionals with a passion for their job?

Whose word will you take for that? WalMart's union? Outsiders who have shown they don't like WalMart (ie political motivation)?

I'm not a big fan of unions wherever they are. I just find it bizarre that for some unions are the epidome of evil, until they support conservatives point of view...and suddenly they're America's champions.

After everything, the increasing numbers of arrests, expulsions, fines (and the signing of a huge increase in border protection)...there's still no evidence that Obama or even ICE leadership supports illegals in the US.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

I understand that. But who do you think would have a better idea of how to execute on WalMart's objectives...WalMart's CEO or WalMart's workers union?

We don't have enough info to judge based on one article and I think rovers points are still valid. IMO

If the union came out and made detailed charges about how the CEO was undermining the company's objectives, and the vote of no confidence was unanimous, I'd hope people would sit up and listen. But really not comparable, as there you're only talking about profit margins, etc. Of course that's a much more casual situation than the 7,000 law enforcement officers we're talking about here who take their lives into their hands regularly to try to control our border. This actually matches up with what I've heard firsthand from people I know who work for ICE and are down in the border area here in Arizona.

Really, this letter helps explain how, despite Obama's claims that the border is more secure than ever, they are now posting large swathes of federal land in southern Arizona as being unsafe for the public to enter, something that was never done before.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Whose word will you take for that? WalMart's union? Outsiders who have shown they don't like WalMart (ie political motivation)?

I'm not a big fan of unions wherever they are. I just find it bizarre that for some unions are the epidome of evil, until they support conservatives point of view...and suddenly they're America's champions.

After everything, the increasing numbers of arrests, expulsions, fines (and the signing of a huge increase in border protection)...there's still no evidence that Obama or even ICE leadership supports illegals in the US.

In the ICE case, they aren't outsiders, or politically motivated people. They are rank-and-file law enforcement officers whose job is to try to control our border, and who, from all evidence, are being actively undercut by the top people in their agency and by the Obama Administration. What a crying shame.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

So, Rover, are you really claiming that these 7,000 law enforcement officers are just pulling our leg and making up all these detailed things they claim? And that you'd rather trust some political hack in DC than 7,000 law enforcement officers on the ground?

 

[Rover]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

So, Rover, are you really claiming that these 7,000 law enforcement officers are just pulling our leg and making up all these detailed things they claim? And that you'd rather trust some political hack in DC than 7,000 law enforcement officers on the ground?

Yes, what I'm saying is that unless they produce some evidence they are making up the claim that the administrations actions regarding the border are for the purposes of supporting amnesty for illegal aliens. I've yet to see anybody show where Obama supports amnesty. Anybody can make a claim, such as the soldier who refuses to be deployed because he thinks Obama was born in Kenya. Unless he has proof of that, its a made up premise. Same thing here.


So, once again - show us where Obama supports amnesty for illegals? Why are you struggling so much with this basic question?


Regarding some of their charges, the part about overcrowding and not enough resources are already well known. The problem is when it gets chalked up to a secret amnesty program. That's when its time to break out the black helicopters and tin foil hats. I'd also like to see a response from the people they're accusing to get the full picture.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Political outsiders would be pundits..who are willing to listen to one side and not the other just because they support that side. In my case, I don't have enough evidence to believe either side...but it appears you do.

If the union came out and made detailed charges about how the CEO was undermining the company's objectives, and the vote of no confidence was unanimous, I'd hope people would sit up and listen. But really not comparable, as there you're only talking about profit margins, etc. Of course that's a much more casual situation than the 7,000 law enforcement officers we're talking about here who take their lives into their hands regularly to try to control our border. This actually matches up with what I've heard firsthand from people I know who work for ICE and are down in the border area here in Arizona.

Really, this letter helps explain how, despite Obama's claims that the border is more secure than ever, they are now posting large swathes of federal land in southern Arizona as being unsafe for the public to enter, something that was never done before.

It doesn't matter what they highlighted.

First, you keep blurring the bounds between 7000 union members and their representatives...they are not the same. I think this is the point that's made time and again by conservatives on threads like this.

Second, unions by their nature do not put the company's outcomes first. If they did, they wouldn't exist...as they'd serve no purpose. So no, I can't think of a circumstance where I'd listen to a company's union representation and think 'ya, the company isn't doing what's in its best interest...now that union leadership whose charter is worker welfare, they know what's in the company's best interest!'

And then you make this huge leap to how inspite of all the numbers to the contrary that Obama is doing a bad job. Just show evidence and you can bypass the faulty inferences.