How do we determine the top players?

[YabaDabaDoo]

Just thinking?

With forwards you cannot rely solely on goals and assists as teams that are fortunate enough to have the talent, have players that can make each other look better. The D, is that a factor of the team/game with the least goals against? and again if they have a talented partner or not? Last but not least goalies, what do they have in front of them "quality of shots" ability to win games? again can the team put the puck in the net? and the ever aggravating shot on net counting fiasco.

So, is it the names we always hear about on the teams that are on the top? I would like to see "but know I cannot" 1 top player pulled and placed on a low performing team not for one season but two. It would be very interesting to see how their game evolves having taken loss after loss, surely they would make a difference but would they be a Top Player or would they just be another talented player on a low performing team?

Player of the week/month? Rookie of the week/month? Goalie of the week/month? I'm not sure what that really means of the methods employed to determine the same especially when most of the judges are not at the games? seems silly. Not to take away the accomplishments of the recipients.

Whats your take?

 

[TonyTheTiger20]

Re: How do we determine the top players?

Hence the ever evolving statistical community. It's a great question and one that is particularly applicable to hockey.

Honestly the easiest way is probably just The Eyeball Test.

Kelli Stack singlehandedly elevated the Boston College Women's Hockey program because of how good she was. The year she started was BC's first NCAA tournament appearance. BC was a competitor every year she played. Look at how bad we were the Olympic year when she was gone.

But, it's tough to quantify that in any meaningful way against players from, say, out west. Especially with how few games there are between east and west in this sport.

Kind of a ramble-y post I guess but it's a fun question to ramble about.

 

[john0128]

Re: How do we determine the top players?

especially tough for goalies.. for example, who is better, the goalie who faces 10 shots a game and never gives up a goal or the goalie who faces 40+ shots a game and is the only reason the team is able to stay in games?

 

[IceIsNice]

Re: How do we determine the top players?

Biases definitely weigh in, though not always intended to come accross as strong as they do. For example, ARM is Minnesota based. He and Candace, who write 99% of the articles on women's hockey are most familiar with the WCHA. They try to objectively follow the goings on in other leagues, but I think even Arlan will admit to the fact that it's hard to write stuff about players that he's not as familiar with, conversely just plain easier to write about those that he is familiar with.

Your questions are valid. I recently posted a rationale as to why this perhaps shouldn't be the year for the Minnesota goalie to walk away with women's hockey top prize. I have zero doubts about her ability, the merits as defined by the award simply don't line up with her performance this year.

Conversely, what have you heard about someone like......say.... Kallie Billadeau from Syracuse? (Disclaimer, I do not personally know nor have any connection to Kallie, other than that she plays in the same league and same position as my daughter). Here's a girl who is playing on what most would consider a mediocre, perhaps slightly better than mediocre team, yet her stats show she is 5th/4th in GAA/Save Percentage. I've seen her play only once this year, yet knowing what I know about her team and their schedule, I'll bet my paycheck that she is working harder than Noora or Rigsby, and yet nobody has heard a thing about her. This is just one example, and perhaps not the best example, but I hopefully you'll agree that it serves to support your argument.

Excellent points, and I applaud you for putting this topic out there.

 

[Call It]

Re: How do we determine the top players?

Often times the D-men that get labeled the best are the ones with more of an offensive flair. Very rarely does anyone talk about a solid stay at home d-man that can break you out and more importantly shut down the top player/ line of the other team. I don't believe coaches recruit that type of player enough. Who is the best D-man to shut down Kessel this year? I mean the one "D" she can't score if that "D" is on the ice.

 

[dave1381]

Re: How do we determine the top players?

This discussion comes up in some form of another quite often. I agree of course that there's plenty of aspects of the game that can't easily be quantified. But in practice if you have to make a decision about an award, to what extent can you objectively use non-statistical information to compare players across regions? There's limits to what everyone can watch, and the reality of the situation is that most award decisions, the stats, the low-cost information, will be far more important than in a perfect information world.

Now suppose you are comparing some players, some of which you're fortunate enough to have seen to see them play. How should you incorporate that information with the statistical information that's readily available? It's crucial to think in terms of how your personal observations compare with the performance you would've expected given the statistics. For example, if you watched a player perform terribly, but it was also statistically her worst game of the year, then it makes no sense for you to go around telling everyone, "This player is much worse than her stats would suggest - I know, I've seen her play!" On the flip side, the player who happened to score a hat trick against your team isn't automatically the best player in the country. It's a huge mistake to put too much weight on the games you happened to see. But if every time you watch a player, they seem to do more than their stats would suggest, even if the level of the stats is variable, then that actually tells you something.

 

[DedicatedFan]

Re: How do we determine the top players?

Interesting discussion. Here are my two cents:

In D1, I think teams review film and make adjustments to statistics, so relying on those statistics is a fairly accurate way to compare players within and across conferences. In D3, some teams keep meticulous statistics, while others don’t know how to accurately record a +/-. Unfortunately, players in a conference compete against each other based on these skewed statistics. I think this is most apparent at the defensive position. In my opinion, +/- numbers are the most accurate way to tell if a defensive player is doing her job. Also, referees tend to miss second assists more than they miss goals or first assists, and often times second assists come from defensemen. This means that the assist numbers are often inaccurate in the conference statistics.

One suggestion might be to have all conference awards given by a player’s own coaches instead of other coaches in the conference. When teams play, I’m sure coaches are more concerned about coaching their own players than they are in watching players on the other team to see who might be deserving of a year-end award.

Another suggestion might be for all conference awards to be presented depending on how a team finishes in the conference instead of choosing a first and second team. It would then be up to the coaches to select who on their team is deserving of the awards. You might end up with more awards given at a certain position, but this might be a fairer way to reward deserving players.

I suppose the counter-argument to both suggestions might be the favoritism a coach may show for or against a player on his or her own team.

Maybe more emphasis should be placed on the academic awards than on the player awards – it seems to me that a player who commits her time to hockey and gets good grades to boot is deserving of a great deal of
praise.

 

[ARM]

Re: How do we determine the top players?

... but I think even Arlan will admit to the fact that it's hard to write stuff about players that he's not as familiar with, conversely just plain easier to write about those that he is familiar with.

I'd say more important than being familiar with a player is having access to her. Phone interviews are okay when that is all that one has, but sometimes you wind up talking to a kid that is walking to class and you can't hear her and she can't hear you and you've never met and the quotes that you get just aren't top notch. Coaches can usually deliver fine over the phone, although I have had a coach blow off a scheduled interview, and then it is tough to know what to do when you really don't know anyone in the department and deadline is fast approaching. That's why it is easier to do interviews with somebody who can sit down with you and talk.

Conversely, what have you heard about someone like......say.... Kallie Billadeau from Syracuse?

We have mentioned her in our discussions. She is at least someone I've seen play before. Opening weekend a year ago Minnesota put 50 shots on Billadeau and to her credit she only allowed four goals. I also watched her play in HS a few times, and she's a quality goaltender.

I'll bet my paycheck that she is working harder than Noora or Rigsby, and yet nobody has heard a thing about her.

Cool! Does this mean I get your paycheck. I'll let you know where you can send it offline. You should have checked the save totals before offering up your money, but I guess that means you can afford it. Billadeau is part of a rotation, while both Rigsby and Räty get the lions share of the minutes. These aren't the Badgers of old, and Rigsby is seeing a lot more rubber under duress than in her other years. I'm very confident that no goalie that plays ~ half the time and plays in a league with Lindenwood and Penn State is being tested more than Alex Rigsby. I've watched her play live four times this season and she saw plenty of action in all of them.

I'm glad that we are talking about Billadeau. There are other deserving players that we should discuss. But that doesn't mean that the "name" players aren't playing great hockey as well.

 

[taz91]

Re: How do we determine the top players?

Kelli Stack singlehandedly elevated the Boston College Women's Hockey program because of how good she was. The year she started was BC's first NCAA tournament appearance. BC was a competitor every year she played. Look at how bad we were the Olympic year when she was gone.

I think Molly Schaus and Allie Thunstrom would take a little exception to that comment considering all three were freshmen the same year.

As for the question at hand, I think we all have our "things" we look for in players. I think the top players can be inserted on most team rosters and increase that teams success. A goalie like Shari Vogt and Britt Kehler when they were at Mankato. Both put up some really good numbers, but didn't get the attention of the goalies from the top teams in the country. Yes, Vogt did make the top 10 for Patty Kaz, but didn't get a lot of attention outside the WCHA. If they would've played at UMD, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Harvard or any of the other top teams at the time they would've been household names around the country in women's hockey. I realize you asked about players, but I tend to focus on goalies. As fans, I tink most of us just focus on goals and assists. Like Arlan, I also saw Billadeau play a number of times in high school and Syracuse has themselves a solid goalie, but that won't get you the attention in the points focused world.

 

[northhockey]

Re: How do we determine the top players?

MARKS TO REMEMBER: Jocelyne Lamoureux is now in the top-five all-time for career scoring at fifth with 255 points (118-137-255). Monique Lamoureux is seventh with 236 (102-141-243). The two rank second and fourth all-time by a WCHA player, respectively.

Both are in the back-half of their senior seasons and chasing the WCHA all-time record set by Hilary Knight who had 262 points including a record 143 goals. Minnesota's Natalie Darwitz holds the all-time conference record of 144 assists.








But again, they really underachieved somehow

 

[CrazyDave]

Re: How do we determine the top players?

But again, they really underachieved somehow

What does everyone say about Dan Marino? He only got to the Super Bowl once, and lost. Is that on him? Maybe, maybe not. But the twins are in the same boat.

I'll also add this. Where do the twins' penalty minutes rank? How many power play goals did UND allow while they were in the sin bin or the locker room?

 

[john0128]

Re: How do we determine the top players?

not to knock on billadeau, but although she has a .944 save percentage you have to realize that 9 of the 17 games she has played are against penn state, lindenwood, union, colgate, sacred heart and uconn. I am not saying she is not a very good goaltender but it is expected that any goalie who plays that weak of a schedule would have a very high save percentage. She has only played one top ten team (clarkson) in all 17 match ups.

I am more impressed with the ECAC (i have never been to the west so I will not make any claims about the WCHA) who have to face top ten teams on a regular basis. Look at goalies yale, and brown's goalies who face top ten teams on a regular basis and have very little support in front of them but still manage to stay well above .900.

I am not saying that these goalies deserve to be nominated as top players in the NCAA but i find it ironic how goalies who make 15 saves a game and shutout teams who are no where near their team's caliber get all the credit. Obviously winning plays a huge role in gathering attention and these goalies find a way to win when they need to, but the point I am trying to make is that a top team's defense is too strong to allow any more than 2-3 quality opportunities against the weaker teams in their league.

Same goes for forwards, if you look at which games players like Jenner and Bestland get all their points you will notice that against top ten teams they are limited to 0-2 but against weaker teams they get 4-8 points in one game.

My suggestion for how we determine who is a top end player is by ignoring stats against the bottom 10 teams in the NCAA and to focus mostly on how these players do against the top 20 teams. This way players who face weak schedules do not have an unfair advantage in the statistical column.

is beating up weak teams really that impressive?

 

[TonyTheTiger20]

Re: How do we determine the top players?

I think Molly Schaus and Allie Thunstrom would take a little exception to that comment considering all three were freshmen the same year.

They were obviously a big part of it -- Schaus especially -- but I remember posting some page-long post one of those years where I pointed out that Stack provided something like an extra 2 points per game (or something ridiculous) more than a replacement player would have.

It wasn't meant as a knock on the other two and obviously they all had great stats, but this is kind of where the eyeball test comes in. Really anyone who had watched BC over that time -- you may have, I wouldn't know -- could certainly tell that Stack just completely changed the game for BC.

 

[ARM]

Re: How do we determine the top players?

It wasn't meant as a knock on the other two and obviously they all had great stats, but this is kind of where the eyeball test comes in. Really anyone who had watched BC over that time -- you may have, I wouldn't know -- could certainly tell that Stack just completely changed the game for BC.

In the three games that they played at Minnesota over their careers, Schaus had a greater positive impact than Stack for BC. Thus, it will be hard to convince Gophers fans that Stack > Schaus. Maybe it was different by the time they were seniors; I can't speak to that, having not watched them live after their Olympic year.

 

[TonyTheTiger20]

Re: How do we determine the top players?

In the three games that they played at Minnesota over their careers, Schaus had a greater positive impact than Stack for BC. Thus, it will be hard to convince Gophers fans that Stack > Schaus. Maybe it was different by the time they were seniors; I can't speak to that, having not watched them live after their Olympic year.

Well, that's an interesting perspective. To be fair, goalies have more of an opportunity to shine when playing against superior competition, kind of by necessity.

BC went, what, 0-2-1 in those three games? And if memory serves, Allie probably made the biggest impact in the tie. So it's not like any of them really made a case in those games honestly.

Man those games were fun. How is it that I was at ALL THREE of those games?

 

[RStarr]

Re: How do we determine the top players?

LMAO at my posts being deleted. So in other words, ignorance is bliss. Effing lame.

 

[northhockey]

Re: How do we determine the top players?

What does everyone say about Dan Marino? He only got to the Super Bowl once, and lost. Is that on him? Maybe, maybe not. But the twins are in the same boat.

I'll also add this. Where do the twins' penalty minutes rank? How many power play goals did UND allow while they were in the sin bin or the locker room?

It is true a National Championship, and penalty mintues are the downside of the sisters, but I feel not too much has been said. They should be #1 and #2 all-time by season's end. Even to the dismay of rivals, it should at least be mentioned

 

[ARM]

Re: How do we determine the top players?

They should be #1 and #2 all-time by season's end.

Their numbers speak for themselves. I think what is more impressive is that UND was nowhere when they arrived, and has been a top 10 team since. Points are nice, but they've delivered wins.

 

[NUWH DogHouse]

Re: How do we determine the top players?

They should be #1 and #2 all-time by season's end. Even to the dismay of rivals, it should at least be mentioned

And they are racking up the points together. Normally there are only so many points to go around for a single team but they have obviously shown their talent.

 

[CLUBTEAMS]

Re: How do we determine the top players?

HOW DO WE DETERMINE THE BEST PLAYERS?

All Depends on who "WE" is; Parents, Fans, Coaches, AD, etc...

IMHO the Best Players have it at birth. God given talent. Gretz comes to mind, as we all watched him at the age of 9 school everyone. And he was not doing this because of off-ice training or working out, trust me. It was Natural talent.

Players with Natural elite level talent can be identified at a very young age. Lam twins come to mind, Stack comes to mind, Kessel comes to mind, Dar & Potter come to mind...Knight, Agosta, Saulnier, Polin, etc... All these players were identified at a very young age. Why? Again, Natural born talent.