Hockey East: A New Big 4?

[UML Puck Hawk]

The results in his first three years are better than the body of work over Parker's last 16 seasons, save for one dream season in 2009. I don't like the way this season ended, but I'm still very pleased that he is the coach.

And exempting one dream season with a borderline generational talent Quinn has done?

 

[Split-N]

Re: Hockey East: A New Big 4?

...The Big 4 is pretty easy right now, BC, UML, PC, BU...

Agree for the reasons stated. But UConn has the resources, coaching, and institutional commitment to make it a Big 5, and sooner rather than later. Northeastern seems to have made an institutional commitment and appears to have a solid recruiting pipeline, but questions linger about coaching. If they play like they played the last few months of this season over the whole of next season, we could well have a Big Six.

Beyond that, Merrimack may not have the resources to keep up with the pack. Blue Chip recruits (or more precisely, their "advisors,") like the bright lights and big cities, so Maine and Vermont have become hard places to sell on the recruiting trail. UMass remains a mystery wrapped up inside of an enigma until we know who'll head up that program.

Not sure what to make of UNH.

 

[BC/HE]

Re: Hockey East: A New Big 4?

UVM? Nope, Sneddon has made the team better, but he has hit a wall. In fact if anything the program is actually sliding backwards. ..

And breaking that wall is as simple as Burlington going out and building a state of the art 8000-9000 seat arena. The potential is there more than anywhere else in the league if that happens.

 

[Patman]

Re: Hockey East: A New Big 4?

And breaking that wall is as simple as Burlington going out and building a state of the art 8000-9000 seat arena. The potential is there more than anywhere else in the league if that happens.

To be fair, they've been talking about that new building FOREVER.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: Hockey East: A New Big 4?

The current Big 4 is BC, BU hanging in there but possible on the edge, UML and PC. Here's why, it's not league standings or seasonal records. It's coaching and the program.

Totally agree, it's coaching first, coaching second, sustained culture of winning third, and coaching fourth.

BC has York and while they may have a down year that's it. At least until the old man retires.

It will be interesting to see what happens when Jerry is no longer running the show, but so long as he's still there, he's showing no signs of slowing down. Remarkable, really.

BU is a big for because of Parker and his success. Quinn isn't doing great but hes kept the program in the top 4 so he gets a reprieve for now but it's on thin ice. I can see BU being relegated to the Mid pack tier with a few lackluster years and recruits start recognizing the medicine woman isn't producing champion ship teams.

Thin ice may be an overstatement, but I can see BU slipping if they can't retain their recruiting momentum. It may turn out that Quinn never gets closer to the big prize than O'Connor's own goal last Spring. That's my guess.

UML brought in a new coach and immediately had success that they have sustained. That's not going away. With the elimination of the 20 seniors roster, the program will be more consistent and will always be right there in the top 4 or the cusp of it in a sustained way.

The only question with Coach Bazin - and as the UNHer's know, currently my favorite D-1 head coach - is whether he's going to be able to get one of his teams over the top. The program has been established, and is annually competitive at the top end of the league now, and for UML these are the good old days, no doubt about it. But two decades ago a new head coach returning to rescue his alma mater from the doldrums was beginning to pick up rave notices for his own turnaround job not too far north of Lowell. That guy cruised in the so-called Big 4 of HE for well over a decade, won some modest hardware for the program, and was a regular participant in the FF, with four trips and two appearances in the Finals, with one going to OT. But he never got his program truly over the top. Bazin's got at least a half decade of sustained similar success to get UML to the promised land before it's even fair to compare and begin to ask questions ...

PC is a bit of question mark as they have benefited greatly from a few key players, but they showed this year it wasn't just Gilles or a few others. But the coaching staff again came in new and produced a quality team that they have maintained for several seasons. I think they are a top 4.

... and perhaps it's because Coach Leaman did get his program to the top last year that Coach Bazin is (somewhat unfairly) left in catch-up mode in the battle of The Alliance. But so long as Leaman stays put, and the school remains fully committed to him, then I don't see PC slipping back anytime soon. I like their future better than I like BU's under Coach Quinn, and I can see PC eclipsing BC someday after York is no longer there. Leaman - like his original mentor (Walshy) - knows his way around building a winning program out of nothing.

After that the question becomes whose going to challenge them? Northeastern? Possibly but they haven't show the same consistent success, even with Roy, Smatz, etc... They've had the recruits and I think they are a mid tier team, but not capable of sustained success.

I think NU will be a volatile program, always struggling in the shadow of BC and BU, but catching lightning in a bottle once in awhile, like they did this past season. I give Coach Madigan a ton of credit for his job with the team this season, but I don't know if he is capable of being the guy who finally establishes consistent success for the NU program.

UNH? Not until they get rid of Umile. The team had it's heyday, breaking the rules moved them to a mid tier team and that lack of success has kept the high end recruits coming in.

They were already sliding by the time the rules thingie came up, but no one outside of Durham really noticed. It's almost as you say about your own program - they hit a wall, lost their upwards momentum, and now they're probably down for the foreseeable future. My guess is we'll probably have to wait until the guy after Coach Souza for the big turnaround.

Maine? Gendron has show to be only marginally better the Timmay, certainly nothing to bring the program back into year after year after year of success.

Gendron has not been "marginally better" than Whitehead, he's been a disaster. And they just extended him. When I see how far UNH has fallen, I look at what's happened to UMaine, and I realize those folks have it far worse than we do.

UVM? Nope, Sneddon has made the team better, but he has hit a wall. In fact if anything the program is actually sliding backwards.

Agreed. Very "UNH three years" ago vibe. But get the right coach in, and I love the potential up there.

UConn? As much as I hate to give the fans any fodder, they perhaps have the best shot at becoming a Big 4 team. Good coach, larger school, etc etc. There is a lot of unknown with that program but a lot of potential.

People are saying the same things about UConn now that they did about UMass when they upgraded/joined HE twenty-something years ago. It's really never changed in Amherst, and I don't see it happening any time soon in Storrs either.

The Big 4 is pretty easy right now, BC, UML, PC, BU...

Agreed, and I think this is pretty much the way it will stay for the better part of the next 5 seasons. I think the only movements likely in that period will be between mid-tier and lower tier programs. The only chance of a big shake-up at the top would be if Quinnipiac came in and joined HE ... but I don't think that's going to happen. I'm sure HE would love to have them ... but I just don't see Quinnipiac having any real driving reason to leave their current situation in the ECAC.

So all hail the New Big 4 - I think this is what it's going to look like for awhile.

 

[DoubleA]

Not sure "Big 4" is the right way to think about it, as there's more than four quality programs in the league and not an enormous disparity between number 4 and 5, but it's clear the four recruiting the best, performing the best, and have the best facilities are BC, BU, UML, and PC.

Largely correct except for PC's facility. Even with the multi million $$ facelift, the sight lines and number of seats with obstructed views at Schneider don't cut it. It's just the way it was built. Locker rooms and training rooms may be top rate. I'm not sure. As a spectator or season ticket holder, no way.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: Hockey East: A New Big 4?

And breaking that wall is as simple as Burlington going out and building a state of the art 8000-9000 seat arena. The potential is there more than anywhere else in the league if that happens.

The idea of building a facility of that size in that area is nuts. The population simply isn't big enough to support that, and at least as of right now, what else would you be putting into that facility? Men's hoops??

20 years ago in Seacoast NH, we worried whether we'd be able to fill a 6,000+ seat facility, so putting a facility that's 50% bigger in an area (Burlington VT) with about half our population is a non-starter. Gutterson isn't holding them back - Sneddon is at this point.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: Hockey East: A New Big 4?

Largely correct except for PC's facility. Even with the multi million $$ facelift, the sight lines and number of seats with obstructed views at Schneider don't cut it. It's just the way it was built. Locker rooms and training rooms may be top rate. I'm not sure. As a spectator or season ticket holder, no way.

Alfond Arena is an absolute dump, and Walter Brown Arena had quite a bit in common with Schneider Arena, but neither facility held their respective programs back from decades of dominance. You guys already have the key ingredient - Coach Leaman - so suck it up with the inadequate sightlines, and try your best to enjoy your winning hockey program.

 

[The Zlax45]

Largely correct except for PC's facility. Even with the multi million $$ facelift, the sight lines and number of seats with obstructed views at Schneider don't cut it. It's just the way it was built. Locker rooms and training rooms may be top rate. I'm not sure. As a spectator or season ticket holder, no way.

Top of the line from a shooting room to wet/cold tubs to theater for the hockey program, and more. They have their own weight room shared with inky women's hockey and lax which includes a artificial surface and the top of the line weight training,

Are players really that worried about sightlines for fans?

 

[Sean Pickett]

Re: Hockey East: A New Big 4?

It seems a number of posters are going on and on about how great Coach Bazin at UMass Lowell and Coach Leaman at Providence, so I took a look at the first three seasons of each coach:

Coach Quinn's first 3 seasons:
2013-14, 10-21-4, 0.343, 9th in regular season, 0-1 in HE tournament, no NCAAs
2014-15, 28-8-5, 0.744, 1st in regular season, 4-0 in HE tournament, HE Champions, 3-1 in NCAAs, Frozen Four finalist
2015-16, 21-13-5, 0.603, 5th in regular season, 2-2 in HE tournament, 0-1 in NCAAs
<B>totals, 59-42-14, 0.574, 1 regular season title, 6-3 in HE tournament, 1 tournament title, 2 NCAAs, 3-2 in NCAAs, 1 Frozen Four, 1 runner-up</B>

Coach Leaman's first 3 seasons:
2011-12, 14-20-4, 0.421, 7th in regular season, 2-2 in HE tournament, lost semifinal, no NCAAs
2012-13, 17-14-7, 0.539, 4th in regular season, 2-2 in HE tournament, lost semifinal, no NCAAs
2013-14, 22-11-6, 0.641, 3rd in regular season, 2-1 in HE tournament, lost semifinal, 1-1 in NCAAs
<B>totals, 53-45-17, 0.535, no regular season title, 6-5 in HE tournament, no tournament title, 1 NCAAs, 1-1 in NCAAs</B>

Coach Bazin's first 3 seasons:
2011-12, 24-13-1, 0.645 2nd in regular season, 1-2 in HE Tournament, 1-1 in NCAAs
2012-13, 28-11-2, 0.707, 1st in regular season, 4-0 in HE Tournament, HE Champions, 2-1 in NCAAs, Frozen Four semifinalist
2013-14, 26-11-4, 0.683, 2nd in regular season, 4-1 in HE Tournament, HE Champions, 1-1 in NCAAs
<B>totals, 78-35-7, 0.679, 1 regular season title, 9-3 in HE Tournament, 2 Tournament titles, 3 NCAAs, 4-3 in NCAAs, 1 Frozen Four</B>

So well Coach Bazin had better results than Coach Quinn his first three season, Coach Quinn had better results then Coach Leaman at PC. And well everyone here is going on about how Coach Leaman won the NCAA title his fourth season, a different bounce or two in that game and he still might have no hardware after five seasons. I think Coach Quinn deserves a little more respect here, or at the least another season or two to see how he does with his recruits playing his system.

Sean

 

[cavbim]

It seems a number of posters are going on and on about how great Coach Bazin at UMass Lowell and Coach Leaman at Providence, so I took a look at the first three seasons of each coach:

Coach Quinn's first 3 seasons:
2013-14, 10-21-4, 0.343, 9th in regular season, 0-1 in HE tournament, no NCAAs
2014-15, 28-8-5, 0.744, 1st in regular season, 4-0 in HE tournament, HE Champions, 3-1 in NCAAs, Frozen Four finalist
2015-16, 21-13-5, 0.603, 5th in regular season, 2-2 in HE tournament, 0-1 in NCAAs
<B>totals, 59-42-14, 0.574, 1 regular season title, 6-3 in HE tournament, 1 tournament title, 2 NCAAs, 3-2 in NCAAs, 1 Frozen Four, 1 runner-up</B>

Coach Leaman's first 3 seasons:
2011-12, 14-20-4, 0.421, 7th in regular season, 2-2 in HE tournament, lost semifinal, no NCAAs
2012-13, 17-14-7, 0.539, 4th in regular season, 2-2 in HE tournament, lost semifinal, no NCAAs
2013-14, 22-11-6, 0.641, 3rd in regular season, 2-1 in HE tournament, lost semifinal, 1-1 in NCAAs
<B>totals, 53-45-17, 0.535, no regular season title, 6-5 in HE tournament, no tournament title, 1 NCAAs, 1-1 in NCAAs</B>

Coach Bazin's first 3 seasons:
2011-12, 24-13-1, 0.645 2nd in regular season, 1-2 in HE Tournament, 1-1 in NCAAs
2012-13, 28-11-2, 0.707, 1st in regular season, 4-0 in HE Tournament, HE Champions, 2-1 in NCAAs, Frozen Four semifinalist
2013-14, 26-11-4, 0.683, 2nd in regular season, 4-1 in HE Tournament, HE Champions, 1-1 in NCAAs
<B>totals, 78-35-7, 0.679, 1 regular season title, 9-3 in HE Tournament, 2 Tournament titles, 3 NCAAs, 4-3 in NCAAs, 1 Frozen Four</B>

So well Coach Bazin had better results than Coach Quinn his first three season, Coach Quinn had better results then Coach Leaman at PC. And well everyone here is going on about how Coach Leaman won the NCAA title his fourth season, a different bounce or two in that game and he still might have no hardware after five seasons. I think Coach Quinn deserves a little more respect here, or at the least another season or two to see how he does with his recruits playing his system.

Sean

Not a fair comparision. BU was not starting at the level PC and UML did. Quinn inherited a solid team with 2 all league rookies in Grezlcyk and O'Reagan. Bazin inherited a team on a down cycle and yes was fortunate to have a freshman like Scott Wilson signed to come on board. Leaman inherited a team that did not have one player who had even played a Hockey East playoff game

Quinn was hired to replace a retiring coach who in his last 3 seasons had 3 3rd place finishes in the league, had won 20 games in 2 of those seasons. Quinn's avg finish his first 3 years 5th, Parker's was 3rd

Bazin replaced MacDonald who was fired and inherited a team that had been last after 2 5th place finishes. His average finish was 2nd after MacDonald's was 7th

Leaman replaced Army who was fired and inherited a team that in reverse order had been 9, 10, 10 and averaged 8 wins a year. Leaman's average finish in those years was 5th, the previous 3 the average finish was 10th

 

[UVM Cat in Texas]

Re: Hockey East: A New Big 4?

To be fair, they've been talking about that new building FOREVER.

Actually, FOREVER and then some.

 

[walrus]

Re: Hockey East: A New Big 4?

Not a fair comparision. BU was not starting at the level PC and UML did. Quinn inherited a solid team with 2 all league rookies in Grezlcyk and O'Reagan. Bazin inherited a team on a down cycle and yes was fortunate to have a freshman like Scott Wilson signed to come on board. Leaman inherited a team that did not have one player who had even played a Hockey East playoff game

Quinn was hired to replace a retiring coach who in his last 3 seasons had 3 3rd place finishes in the league, had won 20 games in 2 of those seasons. Quinn's avg finish his first 3 years 5th, Parker's was 3rd

Bazin replaced MacDonald who was fired and inherited a team that had been last after 2 5th place finishes. His average finish was 2nd after MacDonald's was 7th

Leaman replaced Army who was fired and inherited a team that in reverse order had been 9, 10, 10 and averaged 8 wins a year. Leaman's average finish in those years was 5th, the previous 3 the average finish was 10th

+1, Quinn hasn't done anything, he got a gold mine, PC and Lowell were bottom dwellers

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Hockey East: A New Big 4?

The idea of building a facility of that size in that area is nuts. The population simply isn't big enough to support that, and at least as of right now, what else would you be putting into that facility? Men's hoops??

Correct, at least in it's design phase it is men's hockey and basketball. There have been other ideas thrown out there though to support it such as larger events. There are no other event centers around for concerts and shows. Anywhere's. There was also a minor league hockey team that was lined up as an anchor tenant a while back, but they've likely moved on at this point. But with the lack of any other large indoor arena, there are other option for the place when it isn't in use by the hockey and hoops teams.

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Hockey East: A New Big 4?

or at the least another season or two to see how he does with his recruits playing his system.

Sean

Well this is why I said he was on thin ice. Hard not to do well with Eichel, and he has had the benefit of Parker's recruits and influence. He can certainly keep the program where it is with some success, but if he starts to falter over the next 3-4 years ... So right now he's still in the mix.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: Hockey East: A New Big 4?

Not a fair comparision. BU was not starting at the level PC and UML did. Quinn inherited a solid team with 2 all league rookies in Grezlcyk and O'Reagan. Bazin inherited a team on a down cycle and yes was fortunate to have a freshman like Scott Wilson signed to come on board. Leaman inherited a team that did not have one player who had even played a Hockey East playoff game

Quinn was hired to replace a retiring coach who in his last 3 seasons had 3 3rd place finishes in the league, had won 20 games in 2 of those seasons. Quinn's avg finish his first 3 years 5th, Parker's was 3rd

Bazin replaced MacDonald who was fired and inherited a team that had been last after 2 5th place finishes. His average finish was 2nd after MacDonald's was 7th

Leaman replaced Army who was fired and inherited a team that in reverse order had been 9, 10, 10 and averaged 8 wins a year. Leaman's average finish in those years was 5th, the previous 3 the average finish was 10th

Spot on.

 

[J.D.]

Re: Hockey East: A New Big 4?

If you throw out Quinn's first year and Eichel year as a wash, this year's team proved throughout the year that they could be a very good team. So I'd say he absolutely deserves heat for the total collapse in the postseason. They have killed it on the recruiting trail but to me, his coaching is certainly up for debate. And even if he isn't that great of a coach, the talent alone coming in should keep BU as a top 4 member. With ND leaving the league soon, if you think BU could fall out of the "big 4"...someone has to replace them. Northeastern??? Ya, I'm not going there just yet.

 

[UML Puck Hawk]

Re: Hockey East: A New Big 4?

. With ND leaving the league soon, if you think BU could fall out of the "big 4"...someone has to replace them. Northeastern??? Ya, I'm not going there just yet.

Are we saying the addition of Quinnipiac would force a Big 5, because if not that would be the fastest timeline for a team to drop out.

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Hockey East: A New Big 4?

Are we saying the addition of Quinnipiac would force a Big 5, because if not that would be the fastest timeline for a team to drop out.

Is Quinni going to join HE? I am doubtful of this scenario and frankly I'm fine with having 11 teams. Why do we need 12 teams in HE? I still say the best case scenario (not that it will happen) is for 11 teams to fight it out during the regular season for 8 play off spots. Bottom 3 teams start the golf season early.

 

[UML Puck Hawk]

Re: Hockey East: A New Big 4?

Is Quinni going to join HE? I am doubtful of this scenario and frankly I'm fine with having 11 teams. Why do we need 12 teams in HE? I still say the best case scenario (not that it will happen) is for 11 teams to fight it out during the regular season for 8 play off spots. Bottom 3 teams start the golf season early.

I doubt it as well, but in terms of what is more likely to happen to drop a current big 4 (if we must prescribe to the concept) member program out, I would say the addition of Quinnipiac is more likely than one of the bottom 7 teams having sustained success to knock someone out.