Then why did you bring up OOC road games to begin the conversation?
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Heenan Finalist for UAA job
- Thread starter oswegohockey12
- Start date
Then why did you bring up OOC road games to begin the conversation?
PSUChamps2001
Member of the REAL Zoo Crew
Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job
If the ECAC West is so dominant and almighty how come only two of the current ECAC West teams have played in the National Championship? And one of which probably deserve an * next to it.
No not saying the ECAC West is the ECACNE but if they were so good (a la "we play tough road game") you'd think they could get some teams in the Championship game once and a while.
Sure they have good inter conference records when you play the majority against the bottom half teams. In return gives them all inflated records and thus high SOS. Again it doesn't mean they are not good, but they are not head and shoulders above everyone else.
Utica is heading in the right direction, yes, but one year does not put you at the top. As I said, Fredonia was once one of the best in DIII for two years in the 90s. Geneseo in the mid 00's. Going to the Cardinal Classic, Norwich tournament, actually going to a place like Amherst, Bowdoin, Williams is what will make the program respectable. Sure teams like Salve and WNEC want to come to Utica, 150 fans to 3500 is a plus, but your elite teams don't want to give the time of day to a team/coach who doesn't reciprocate. Heck even Cortland got fed up with it.
If the ECAC West is so dominant and almighty how come only two of the current ECAC West teams have played in the National Championship? And one of which probably deserve an * next to it.
No not saying the ECAC West is the ECACNE but if they were so good (a la "we play tough road game") you'd think they could get some teams in the Championship game once and a while.
Sure they have good inter conference records when you play the majority against the bottom half teams. In return gives them all inflated records and thus high SOS. Again it doesn't mean they are not good, but they are not head and shoulders above everyone else.
Utica is heading in the right direction, yes, but one year does not put you at the top. As I said, Fredonia was once one of the best in DIII for two years in the 90s. Geneseo in the mid 00's. Going to the Cardinal Classic, Norwich tournament, actually going to a place like Amherst, Bowdoin, Williams is what will make the program respectable. Sure teams like Salve and WNEC want to come to Utica, 150 fans to 3500 is a plus, but your elite teams don't want to give the time of day to a team/coach who doesn't reciprocate. Heck even Cortland got fed up with it.
Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job
I don't give a cr*p. I just enjoy watching you twist your own debates into pretzel like logic.
Ha, ha, get the pun? Oh, how do I do it?
I don't give a cr*p. I just enjoy watching you twist your own debates into pretzel like logic.
Ha, ha, get the pun? Oh, how do I do it?
Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job
Oh, that's an easy answer, and of course I know you asked it rhetorically...
Fishman will always change the rules of his argument as soon as you point out the fallacy of his argument. It's a very entertaining game he plays ... if you enjoy watching train wrecks.
Oh, that's an easy answer, and of course I know you asked it rhetorically...
Fishman will always change the rules of his argument as soon as you point out the fallacy of his argument. It's a very entertaining game he plays ... if you enjoy watching train wrecks.
Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job
Watch it, Remy, Fishman will make sure to endlessly change his arguments to disprove your point. Remember when I disproved his argument that ECAC West teams never got a fair chance at contending for the NCAA title in the past 10 years, so he quickly said, "No, no, I'm talking the past three years..."
Apparently, in his math, 10 = 3.
Watch it, Remy, Fishman will make sure to endlessly change his arguments to disprove your point. Remember when I disproved his argument that ECAC West teams never got a fair chance at contending for the NCAA title in the past 10 years, so he quickly said, "No, no, I'm talking the past three years..."
Apparently, in his math, 10 = 3.
Fishman'81
Black Bear since D-2
Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job
It's true: I haven't taken the time to learn the selection process until recently. Furthermore, I have gotten a lot of my "facts" wrong by dint of my lack of interest in looking-up the numbers. And, at other times, I mis-speak regarding what year, whether OOC or not, etc... My bad on all counts.
But that fact remains that a quality road-game is just that, grasshoppers, whether it's in-conference or not, and the same goes for playing tough competition anywhere. (Yes, even at home!)
You can play semantics all you like, and mock me until you wet yourselves with glee via your own dubious wit... But the one fundamental point I've been making cuts right through your attempts to obfuscate one simple fact: Utica's 2013-13 schedule was as tough as it got in the East last year.
All meaningless details aside, do any of you D-3 savants care to dispute that?
It's true: I haven't taken the time to learn the selection process until recently. Furthermore, I have gotten a lot of my "facts" wrong by dint of my lack of interest in looking-up the numbers. And, at other times, I mis-speak regarding what year, whether OOC or not, etc... My bad on all counts.
But that fact remains that a quality road-game is just that, grasshoppers, whether it's in-conference or not, and the same goes for playing tough competition anywhere. (Yes, even at home!)
You can play semantics all you like, and mock me until you wet yourselves with glee via your own dubious wit... But the one fundamental point I've been making cuts right through your attempts to obfuscate one simple fact: Utica's 2013-13 schedule was as tough as it got in the East last year.
All meaningless details aside, do any of you D-3 savants care to dispute that?
PSUChamps2001
Member of the REAL Zoo Crew
And we've already showed you how SOS is misleading in DIII. But whatever tickles your pickle. And I'll say it again, if the ECACW was so good they would have played in more Championship games then two, and one derserves an #, @, * or whatever you want to add.
Fishman'81
Black Bear since D-2
Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job
Well, lousy argument, we all know that the W got screwed in terms of bids until recently via the lovely D-3 process, and they were rarely sited at home in the PS when they were invited... Often, they were pitted against one another, too, via an obvious conspiracy.
Granted, the situation is much improved now, but you need only look at Hobart's exclusion last year to see how the process still fails to reward merit vs. making sure that all the AQs get their dubious birthrights.
(And as far as Neumann goes, didn't King Richard say: "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying." ?)
Well, lousy argument, we all know that the W got screwed in terms of bids until recently via the lovely D-3 process, and they were rarely sited at home in the PS when they were invited... Often, they were pitted against one another, too, via an obvious conspiracy.
Granted, the situation is much improved now, but you need only look at Hobart's exclusion last year to see how the process still fails to reward merit vs. making sure that all the AQs get their dubious birthrights.
(And as far as Neumann goes, didn't King Richard say: "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying." ?)
Captain Obvious
...the Man, the Myth, the Legend...
Challenge flag has been thrown.
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Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job
Coming in late on this one...don't visit the site as often in the off season.
As an ECAC-W fan...it does drive me nuts that in recent history only Neumann has broke through to take the National title. Just seems like the league has had a lot of strong teams over the years...but never had that one REALLY strong team. When the chips are on the table, the teams from the ECAC-W making the tourney have not been able to get it done. No argument to be had there - it is what it is. And it is a valid reason to question whether the league should be given any consideration as the "best" in the country.
However, would you have said the NESCAC was an awesome league when Middlebury was racking up national titles? ...Or that the ECAC-E is a dominant league just 'cause Norwich is in the hunt every year? One great team doesn't mean the league is strong...so your argument is a bit limited in that regard. My stance is more related to depth...how good the is league from top to bottom. I get where you're coming from...but don't think it is totally accurate to judge the strength of a league based solely on it's best team (i.e. the one that makes the National final).
Just my two cents...
Coming in late on this one...don't visit the site as often in the off season.
As an ECAC-W fan...it does drive me nuts that in recent history only Neumann has broke through to take the National title. Just seems like the league has had a lot of strong teams over the years...but never had that one REALLY strong team. When the chips are on the table, the teams from the ECAC-W making the tourney have not been able to get it done. No argument to be had there - it is what it is. And it is a valid reason to question whether the league should be given any consideration as the "best" in the country.
However, would you have said the NESCAC was an awesome league when Middlebury was racking up national titles? ...Or that the ECAC-E is a dominant league just 'cause Norwich is in the hunt every year? One great team doesn't mean the league is strong...so your argument is a bit limited in that regard. My stance is more related to depth...how good the is league from top to bottom. I get where you're coming from...but don't think it is totally accurate to judge the strength of a league based solely on it's best team (i.e. the one that makes the National final).
Just my two cents...
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Fishman'81
Black Bear since D-2
Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job
Thanks to you and others, we know the D-3 rules, but we don't have to agree with them.
In a field composed of a mere 11 teams, a little more objectivity would make the selection-process smell a bit sweeter... And we'd still see the Norwiches of the country in the PS, just not by dint of an AQ.
Thanks to you and others, we know the D-3 rules, but we don't have to agree with them.
In a field composed of a mere 11 teams, a little more objectivity would make the selection-process smell a bit sweeter... And we'd still see the Norwiches of the country in the PS, just not by dint of an AQ.
Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job
Unless/until the people who run DIII basketball and football become unhappy with the system, it won't change.
Unless/until the people who run DIII basketball and football become unhappy with the system, it won't change.
PSUChamps2001
Member of the REAL Zoo Crew
Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job
I still don't get what or how you want the NCAA to change. You complain but never offer what you would like to see changed and how...
I still don't get what or how you want the NCAA to change. You complain but never offer what you would like to see changed and how...
PSUChamps2001
Member of the REAL Zoo Crew
Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job
I have no issue of putting the West as "one of" the best, but sorry the OLD NCHA is heads and shoulders above. IF the West got another Leb Valley type team the would be nothing more then your average conference with out a "RELLY" good team. Any conference would like an ECACW team in their league competition wise. But no ECACW team will walk away like Norwich, Oswego, Plattsburgh, SNC, UWS, Adrian have in their conferences. Sure they will win some...heck Potsdam has a SUNYAC title...but some people act like the ECAC W is nothing but Oswegos, Plattsburgh, Norwich, SNC type teams. It is not this super conference. If they were in the NESCAC they would eventually have tough games with the "Hamiltons" or the Skidmores of the East or the Cortlands of the SUNYAC...oh wait nevermind. As I think we both agree if it was a super conference of sorts...they would have more wins when it counts....with out the # or * or whatever. ...
I have no issue of putting the West as "one of" the best, but sorry the OLD NCHA is heads and shoulders above. IF the West got another Leb Valley type team the would be nothing more then your average conference with out a "RELLY" good team. Any conference would like an ECACW team in their league competition wise. But no ECACW team will walk away like Norwich, Oswego, Plattsburgh, SNC, UWS, Adrian have in their conferences. Sure they will win some...heck Potsdam has a SUNYAC title...but some people act like the ECAC W is nothing but Oswegos, Plattsburgh, Norwich, SNC type teams. It is not this super conference. If they were in the NESCAC they would eventually have tough games with the "Hamiltons" or the Skidmores of the East or the Cortlands of the SUNYAC...oh wait nevermind. As I think we both agree if it was a super conference of sorts...they would have more wins when it counts....with out the # or * or whatever. ...
Fishman'81
Black Bear since D-2
Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job
Since you asked...
I would like to see the entire field selected via KRACH or some similar, transparent metric, with no AQs whatsoever. (Yes, there would clearly have to be some predetermined number of teams from both the East and West, since meaningful RS comparisons don't exist between them, and thus separate E/W ratings would be requisite.)
And, the field should be expanded to at least 12 teams (I'd prefer 16) despite the ridiculous Holy Grail ratio D-3 holds so dear, as if anyone aside from the few of us even care enough about sports at this level to notice such an momentous sea-change.
All D-3 sports- even hoops and football - are completely obscure on the national level, so why not lead the nation in "fairness", if nothing else?
PS: To address your other post, I'm curious as to which conference you would rate as the strongest last season, and why..? Certain posters, such as yourself, mock the notion of the W's top-to-bottom superiority, but no one has put forth a substantive argument to the contrary. Most of you guys seem to take it personally, as if it matters.
I'm all ears, and thank you.
Since you asked...
I would like to see the entire field selected via KRACH or some similar, transparent metric, with no AQs whatsoever. (Yes, there would clearly have to be some predetermined number of teams from both the East and West, since meaningful RS comparisons don't exist between them, and thus separate E/W ratings would be requisite.)
And, the field should be expanded to at least 12 teams (I'd prefer 16) despite the ridiculous Holy Grail ratio D-3 holds so dear, as if anyone aside from the few of us even care enough about sports at this level to notice such an momentous sea-change.
All D-3 sports- even hoops and football - are completely obscure on the national level, so why not lead the nation in "fairness", if nothing else?
PS: To address your other post, I'm curious as to which conference you would rate as the strongest last season, and why..? Certain posters, such as yourself, mock the notion of the W's top-to-bottom superiority, but no one has put forth a substantive argument to the contrary. Most of you guys seem to take it personally, as if it matters.
I'm all ears, and thank you.
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Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job
What conference did the '12-'13 National Champions hail from? And, what school gave them the most trouble in the NCAA tournament? What conference did that school hail from?
The answers to those questions may be worth investigating when discussing which was the top conference in '12-'13.
What conference did the '12-'13 National Champions hail from? And, what school gave them the most trouble in the NCAA tournament? What conference did that school hail from?
The answers to those questions may be worth investigating when discussing which was the top conference in '12-'13.