Headline News Thread

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Headline News Thread

Thanks. It was bb_dl, I was already trolling enough.

I honestly don't even know what it meant. It went over my head.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Headline News Thread

**** that noise. Those *******s have had a hard-on for fining US companies for a decade. But frankly, country of origin is fairly low on the list of issues. It shouldn't matter where they are from.

Flagrant violations of the law like this should be subject to massive fines and criminal charges. That company should get a kick right in the pants to let them and every other company out there that they shouldn't even ****ing think about this for a second.

I mean, what would they have to offer us in return for back channel negotiations? This is a really big deal. It should cause some damage because of just how ballsy and flagrant this was.

Yep. They should be burnt to the ground, like Penn State SHOULD have been.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Headline News Thread

The drug thing:

I've personally seen people taking/on:

cocaine, LSD, X (slightly different, IMO), marijuana, crank, and mushrooms.

The sticky icky is easily the least harmful. It's not even close.

And yes, alcohol is much more destructive.

I've been pretty sheltered. I've only seen people on alcohol, pot, and of all things LSD. Alcohol is the worst, by far -- it turns passive raging a-holes into active raging a-holes and its lethality from fights and accidents is staggering. Of the three pot is obviously the one that should be legal. It's illegal primarily because of cultural biases (not to mention that it's been a great excuse to build a prison-political complex).

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Headline News Thread

I understand what you're saying. I don't agree, though. I think he's mis-ascribing to marijuana what other ages have mis-ascribed to rock music or hot rods or girl/boy craziness... the vast majority of high schoolers weren't designed to be in high school, they were designed to be getting on with life on the farms and in the factories. 90% of high school students have no interest in learning other than picking up a necessary credential, so their high school days pass with all the excitement and alacrity of a wait at the DMV. We ought to have recognized this long ago and adopted a more European system with well-financed and attractive vocational school and internships. There is absolutely no point in teaching high school students who don't care calculus or chemistry -- they will never need nor understand it.

The big difference with European models should be that every kid who wants to go to high school (or college, or graduate school) should be able to go regardless of money. As long as they have the interest, the drive, and enough on the ball to make the grades, they should be able to pursue higher education. But I digress from the main point.

Pot doesn't sidetrack kids who wouldn't have been sidetracked by something else. Pretty much every kid in America smokes pot at some point between 14 and 18 -- those who become tied in with the culture as an obsession are filling up a missing space that with other kids would be filled by family, friends, learning, the arts, sports, etc. Ban pot and those kids will just cut class to talk about whatever the next escape is, because the escape is a rational response to an institution that offers them nothing.

Yes, we disagree. You are mixing a number of issues into the discussion in this post, some of which I actually have some agreement on, but again doesn't take away from the point the veteran teacher was making (and that I heard the same thing from a teacher I know) about pot dulling the senses and interest to learn. I saw it when I was in school and have seen/heard it many times since then. To think pot has no such effect is to me just not facing the reality of the situation. Yes, kids in school have lots of other things going on, some of which contribute to apathy (another reason to home school!).

 

[Kepler]

Re: Headline News Thread

Yes, we disagree. You are mixing a number of issues into the discussion in this post, some of which I actually have some agreement on, but again doesn't take away from the point the veteran teacher was making (and that I heard the same thing from a teacher I know) about pot dulling the senses and interest to learn. I saw it when I was in school and have seen/heard it many times since then. To think pot has no such effect is to me just not facing the reality of the situation. Yes, kids in school have lots of other things going on, some of which contribute to apathy (another reason to home school!).

Home schooling is just a way for parents to pass on their ignorance to their children more directly.

We don't agree. I don't think a repetition of 1970's "won't someone think of the children" bromides gets us anywhere near the truth. In the minds of Boomers, pot is still closely linked with 60's counter-culture and so it becomes a political agenda item to harass and stigmatize users as a stand-in for re-fighting that decrepit culture war. Hopefully almost everybody under 50 has moved well beyond us. That perspective (both sides of it) is tired and obsolete.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Headline News Thread

Home schooling is just a way for parents to pass on their ignorance to their children more directly.

We don't agree. I don't think a repetition of 1970's "won't someone think of the children" bromides gets us anywhere near the truth. In the minds of Boomers, pot is still closely linked with 60's counter-culture and so it becomes a political agenda item to harass and stigmatize users as a stand-in for re-fighting that decrepit culture war. Hopefully almost everybody under 50 has moved well beyond us. That perspective (both sides of it) is tired and obsolete.

Homeschooling done right is a far superior option to sending your kids off to someone else to educate. Of course not everyone does homeschooling well, just to head that one off at the pass.

Yes, we have vastly different perspectives and understanding on pot. I just don't get folks who won't admit there are problems or potential problems with pot. When people trot out the discussions about how it's not as bad in certain ways as alcohol or other drugs, that's very telling. I guess the old saying "two wrongs don't make a right" is out of fashion also.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Headline News Thread

I understand what you're saying. I don't agree, though.

Pot doesn't sidetrack kids who wouldn't have been sidetracked by something else. Pretty much every kid in America smokes pot at some point between 14 and 18

That's not what the research indicates. It appears that smoking marijuana in teen years can have long-term negative effects because the teenage brain is still developing. Chronic marijuana use for 14- and 15-year olds is vastly different than chronic marijuana use by 22-year olds (who hadn't started sooner). I don't have a link handy but I think it was the American Academy of Pediatrics or some such organization that sponsored the research.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Headline News Thread

Homeschooling done right is a far superior option to sending your kids off to someone else to educate. Of course not everyone does homeschooling well, just to head that one off at the pass.

Yes, we have vastly different perspectives and understanding on pot. I just don't get folks who won't admit there are problems or potential problems with pot. When people trot out the discussions about how it's not as bad in certain ways as alcohol or other drugs, that's very telling. I guess the old saying "two wrongs don't make a right" is out of fashion also.

From personal observance, I have one brother who used to drink and become really mean, but when he'd smoke a bowl become a mellow fellow. Since he quit drinking, he's a much better guy to know. I don't think he ever quit rocking the ganj'.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Headline News Thread

From personal observance, I have one brother who used to drink and become really mean, but when he'd smoke a bowl become a mellow fellow. Since he quit drinking, he's a much better guy to know. I don't think he ever quit rocking the ganj'.

No doubt smoking pot tends to make people mellow. Which certainly is better than really mean. But there are certainly circumstances when attentiveness, drive, etc. are needed, like in an educational (or many work) setting, and being real mellow (not to mention the developmental issues FF mentions below) would be a hindrance.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Headline News Thread

That's not what the research indicates. It appears that smoking marijuana in teen years can have long-term negative effects because the teenage brain is still developing. Chronic marijuana use for 14- and 15-year olds is vastly different than chronic marijuana use by 22-year olds (who hadn't started sooner). I don't have a link handy but I think it was the American Academy of Pediatrics or some such organization that sponsored the research.

That's precisely why we don't allow people under 21 to buy or possess alcohol. But many drink anyway. That's not a valid reason to legalize pot for the 21+ set, but the continued costs of enforcement are obvious - crowded jails, unnecessary criminal records for simple possession, and the overwhelmingly slanted conviction rate of poor blacks.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Headline News Thread

That's not what the research indicates. It appears that smoking marijuana in teen years can have long-term negative effects because the teenage brain is still developing. Chronic marijuana use for 14- and 15-year olds is vastly different than chronic marijuana use by 22-year olds (who hadn't started sooner). I don't have a link handy but I think it was the American Academy of Pediatrics or some such organization that sponsored the research.

Unless they account for variables such as parenting (lack thereof) and engagement in after school activities etc. it's probably not going to tell us anything we don't already know ie lazy people are gonna be lazy etc.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Headline News Thread

No doubt smoking pot tends to make people mellow. Which certainly is better than really mean. But there are certainly circumstances when attentiveness, drive, etc. are needed, like in an educational (or many work) setting, and being real mellow (not to mention the developmental issues FF mentions below) would be a hindrance.

So then it's on the consumer to use the drug responsibly, like we require of alcoholic beverage consumers today. Kids show up to school drunk and they're punished. If kids show up high, they can and should be punished.

I'm not advocating its use by any means. During my time in high school, I witnessed a friend who was to get a position on the varsity basketball team. Given how small those teams are, that's quite a thing. Instead, at the end of his junior year he started smoking pot and his motivation for all things basketball were gone. At the same time, I knew people who were on the football team that got high after every game as a way to mellow out after being wound up from playing. In fact, I used to play hockey with a guy who played DIII out east, and he "couldn't play" unless he was high.

Like all other things, its usage is going to run the gambit. People need to be given the facts and then they'll weed themselves out in that full array. (Sorry for the pun.)

 

[Kepler]

Re: Headline News Thread

Homeschooling done right is a far superior option to sending your kids off to someone else to educate. Of course not everyone does homeschooling well, just to head that one off at the pass.

I actually think the ideal form of schooling was the Renaissance model of having a private tutor in the home, both teaching from a set (in that case, classical) curriculum and also taking a Montessori-like approach of learning by doing, cultivating the child's natural talents and interests. But not everybody can afford to be Federico, Duke of Urbino.

The German factory model of education that we adopted in the early 20th century works great if you're trying to produce an army of interchangeable workers or soldiers. So far we haven't come up with anything better to educate huge masses of children, but maybe information technology will help when combined with intelligent and forward-thinking educational expertise. Still, public education is invaluable in being the one place where kids from different backgrounds meet and form their own attachments and opinions. For most people it will be the only thing approaching a "cosmopolitan" experience in their lives. It's not exactly ennobling or pleasant to meet a true cross-section of your fellow beings, but it is highly educational.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Headline News Thread

Yes, we have vastly different perspectives and understanding on pot. I just don't get folks who won't admit there are problems or potential problems with pot. When people trot out the discussions about how it's not as bad in certain ways as alcohol or other drugs, that's very telling. I guess the old saying "two wrongs don't make a right" is out of fashion also.

I have no idea what you mean by "very telling," aside from this again seems to be a place where you take your assumptions and run with them.

The simple fact is that alcohol is far more dangerous and destructive than pot. I say that as a person who consumes the former and not the latter, though that shouldn't matter. It's obvious to me from both anecdotal observation of people over the years and the pure statistical data on the carnage caused by alcohol.

The statement of fact X has nothing to do with "not admitting" fact Y -- it's just discussing something different, and just because you are centered on fact Y doesn't oblige everyone around you to restrict themselves solely to a discussion of it. In this case I agree with you to some extent on fact Y -- I agree that there are potential problems with pot. However, I'm focusing on what for me is the real issue: if we were serious about utilitarian effects of substances our laws would be different; in this instance, they would be reversed. The substances we control say at least as much about political posturing and fanning cultural fears (not to mention commercial lobbying) as they do about substantive issues.

 

[geezer]

Re: Headline News Thread

Still, public education is invaluable in being the one place where kids from different backgrounds meet and form their own attachments and opinions. For most people it will be the only thing approaching a "cosmopolitan" experience in their lives. It's not exactly ennobling or pleasant to meet a true cross-section of your fellow beings, but it is highly educational.

This is the #1 reason I want my kids in public school: the social experience. The learning is obviously toned down to the lowest common denominator in the early grades, for which reason a friend of mine has homeschooled his kid to age 17. She's way ahead of the game academically, but has never had a single friend her own age. A disturbingly sheltered life (for example, she's never tasted meat or milk, and never slept outside her home) which at some point is going to violently eject itself from the nest.
At home, we do boost the public curriculum by doing and supervising a lot of reading, especially during the summer.

 

[goldy_331]

Re: Headline News Thread

This is the #1 reason I want my kids in public school: the social experience. The learning is obviously toned down to the lowest common denominator in the early grades, for which reason a friend of mine has homeschooled his kid to age 17. She's way ahead of the game academically, but has never had a single friend her own age. A disturbingly sheltered life (for example, she's never tasted meat or milk, and never slept outside her home) which at some point is going to violently eject itself from the nest.
At home, we do boost the public curriculum by doing and supervising a lot of reading, especially during the summer.

Boy, that's the choice of the parents to isolate that kid. We have friends who home schooled all 5 of their kids to some point or another (one boy got put in a school to provide more discipline - but a private school). All of them have had a rich social life through sports, church activities, musical activities, jobs, etc. They have been top performers academically (at least the oldest three who have graduated college or are in college) and all are well rounded and well adjusted socially. We met them when our son played hockey with #4 and we've become friends with them all. When #3 "graduated" last spring we went to the party and there was no lack of friends there to enjoy the day.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Headline News Thread

I definitely worry that home schooled kids are simply being programmed by their parents. To some extent, parenting is programming -- the inculcation of values, religion, etc. But it shouldn't extend to matters of fact or of association. Parents should not be gatekeepers who unilaterally decide to prevent their children from learning things which they don't agree with or meeting children who they're suspicious/afraid of. But I'll admit I think 90% of the people who homeschool are doing it to shelter their children from scientific refutations of religious myths (evolution, sex ed, cosmology), and/or because they're terrified of an environment that includes people who they are prejudiced against (blacks, browns, liberals). The people who homeschool have all the best intentions, but I think it's wrong to limit your children's exposure to what are, after all, mainstream scientific ideas. If your faith is really all that it ought to be able to sit in the same room with science.

What homeschooling is doing is turning back the clock to a time when many places were isolated and not exposed to any outside influences that contradicted parental teaching. That's the "Real America" that these people pine for. They are creating a parallel fantasy world.

 

[geezer]

Re: Headline News Thread

Boy, that's the choice of the parents to isolate that kid. We have friends who home schooled all 5 of their kids to some point or another (one boy got put in a school to provide more discipline - but a private school). All of them have had a rich social life through sports, church activities, musical activities, jobs, etc. They have been top performers academically (at least the oldest three who have graduated college or are in college) and all are well rounded and well adjusted socially. We met them when our son played hockey with #4 and we've become friends with them all. When #3 "graduated" last spring we went to the party and there was no lack of friends there to enjoy the day.

This is the best case, IMO, when the parents are talented enough to teach all subjects. There are those cases where the aim is to replace the whole curriculum with Mt. Ararat archaeological studies. It takes very dedicated parents to do it well, but I can see doing it as an improvement/expansion over the public curriculum.

 

[goldy_331]

Re: Headline News Thread

I definitely worry that home schooled kids are simply being programmed by their parents. To some extent, parenting is programming -- the inculcation of values, religion, etc. But it shouldn't extend to matters of fact or of association. Parents should not be gatekeepers who unilaterally decide to prevent their children from learning things which they don't agree with or meeting children who they're suspicious/afraid of. But I'll admit I think 90% of the people who homeschool are doing it to shelter their children from scientific refutations of religious myths, and/or because they're terrified of an environment that includes people who they are prejudiced against.

Just as you caution to the people you are talking about, you need to separate what you think from what actually is.

 

[JF_Gophers]

I definitely worry that home schooled kids are simply being programmed by their parents. To some extent, parenting is programming -- the inculcation of values, religion, etc. But it shouldn't extend to matters of fact or of association. Parents should not be gatekeepers who unilaterally decide to prevent their children from learning things which they don't agree with or meeting children who they're suspicious/afraid of. But I'll admit I think 90% of the people who homeschool are doing it to shelter their children from scientific refutations of religious myths, and/or because they're terrified of an environment that includes people who they are prejudiced against.

What about basic fears? Sex, drugs, violence, bad influences leading to other issues like crime.