Has UND lost in conference realignment?

[Osorojo]

Re: Has UND lost in conference realignment?

By which point something ELSE will have changed...

Yup, and the increase in T.V. revenues will surely dwarf any increase in ticket sales. The problem with clinging to the past, or even the present, is that they keep slipping away.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

If "Conference Realignment" has taught us anything, you could bet a Notre Dame-BC move to the B1G would be quickly followed by UNH & BU to the NCHC.

Still leaves the BTHC as "the" power conference in college hockey. Not that it won't eventually prove to be anyways.

 

[Biddco]

Re: Has UND lost in conference realignment?

Those NCHC schools not named UMD and SCSU have relatively few Minnesota players on their roster. DU, CC, WMU and Miami have just 8 between them. UND and UNO have 6 each. As long as Dean Blais is at UNO they will have no trouble recruiting in Minnesota. UND, just because of it's geographic location and it's history will always be able to pick up the 4-6 Minnesota kids they have on their roster each year, whether they play UMD and SCSU, or not.

I really don't understand the whole seismic shift in recruiting theory that's going around as a result of the conference shifts. I don't see recruiting affected one bit.

Minnesota, Michigan, and to a large extent Wisconsin and Michigan State have always had the pick of the recruits. That's not going to change, for good or for bad.

That means we are literally talking about the recruiting of two teams, Ohio St. and Penn St. The theory seems to be these two schools will now, as a result of the formation of the BTHC, steal elite recruits from DU, UND, UMD and CC (although apparently not from ND, BU, BC, MN, MI, MSU or Wis), resulting in a two conference sport.

Can anyone point to any example where that has happened in collegiate sports? And if this is what happens, can someone explain to me why the Minnesota football team is left with those recruits from Minnesota that "elite" teams, and NDSU, don't want? Or why for the life of me I can't name a single player in the NFL who ever played for Kentucky? Or why I never seem to hear the names of the "elite" players from Washington St. called when I watch the NBA draft?

Granted, I've never been recruited as a major college athlete. But I personally wouldn't find appealing the pitch, "come to our school kid and you get to be thrashed weekly by the best in the college game."

Like the original poster, I am a UND fan. I was also disappointed in the Big 10's decision, and not in favor of the formation of the NCHC.

But not because I believe any school will receive some advantage, or for that matter, be harmed by this change. Mine was purely a selfish reason. The loss of conference away games much closer to where I live. The loss of a great conference tournament close to where I live. The loss of long time rivals. But that's something all current WCHA and CCHA fans are about to lose, so we're in the same boat.

Well said. It seems that college hockey is a different beast when it comes to recruiting. The numbers are smaller and more regionalized than other sports. For the big name schools, they have no problem grabbing commitments from places their conference doesn't play in regularly. Notre Dame has problem grabbing great recruits from Minnesota, despite the fact the conference they are in now (CCHA) has zero teams in MN. It would seem that, most of hockey recruiting is done by name brand and what each individual school offers.

 

[dggoddard]

Re: Has UND lost in conference realignment?

It would seem that, most of hockey recruiting is done by name brand and what each individual school offers.

The "name brand" is the coach/coaching staff at each school.

 

[Biddco]

Re: Has UND lost in conference realignment?

The "name brand" is the coach/coaching staff at each school.

And facilities and history (or one could say TRADITION).

 

[mnstate0fhockey]

Well said. It seems that college hockey is a different beast when it comes to recruiting. The numbers are smaller and more regionalized than other sports. For the big name schools, they have no problem grabbing commitments from places their conference doesn't play in regularly. Notre Dame has problem grabbing great recruits from Minnesota, despite the fact the conference they are in now (CCHA) has zero teams in MN. It would seem that, most of hockey recruiting is done by name brand and what each individual school offers.

Notre Dame has had a lot of success out of Edina (for reasons I won't get into here), and recruiting legacies out of Minnesota. Otherwise, not so much.

 

[mnstate0fhockey]

The "name brand" is the coach/coaching staff at each school.

In many cases, it is the school's "name" itself. See my comment above regarding Notre Dame's success in getting kids out of Edina. Little to do with staff from what I have heard, though Jackson's presence probably doesn't hurt them either.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Has UND lost in conference realignment?

We are going to find out pretty quickly if the MPLS/St.Paul media cover non-Big Ten hockey schools.

I'd be pretty shocked to see the Mpls/StP media start covering Big Ten hockey schools.

 

[mnstate0fhockey]

I'd be pretty shocked to see the Mpls/StP media start covering Big Ten hockey schools.

I won't be. I'm guessing the mainstream media is itching to start covering more "traditional" BIG opponents that casual hockey fans and non-hockey fans in the area can relate to.

 

[Sioux_fan]

Re: Has UND lost in conference realignment?

Minnesota, Michigan, and to a large extent Wisconsin and Michigan State have always had the pick of the recruits. That's not going to change, for good or for bad.

I'm not sure this 100% true right now. We've seen programs like UND and UMD go up against Minnesota and win and I don't think if your a top player in Minnesota that you automatically go to the U of M. Over the past five years (sans last year), Minnesota has really struggled to win big games and be a top tier program in large part because they lose a lot of good players to the NHL but also because they've had quite a bit of turnover at assistant coaching and they've had what I believe to season meltdowns and players who don't play as a team. I guarantee kids see this even though as a UND fan I'll admit that the U of M is a higher profile hockey program than UND. Of course this may change in the next ten years but for now, the U of M doesn't win all their recruiting wars in Minnesota.

Gersich, a nephew of the Brotens (Gopher greats) chose UND. Gersich said it came down to UND and Minnesota and he chose UND. Poganski also chose UND over hometown St. Cloud and Minnesota.

Going off this issue, I'd wonder what the current pecking order is if you are a talented hockey player in Minnesota (knowing family ties, where the kid grew up can make kids choose other than the best)?

Also, what program is the best at competing for the best Minnesota kids? The U of M is obviously 1 but UND, Nebraska-Omaha, and Notre Dame, and at times UMD and St. Cloud, get some talented players also. Call me crazy but I think Notre Dame may be the 2nd best at getting the best hockey players in Minnesota.

We are going to find out pretty quickly if the MPLS/St.Paul media cover non-Big Ten hockey schools

I wonder this too as FSN will have probably not do Gopher games anymore now that the Big Ten Network will do most of them. Will they pick up the SCSU-UMD game, will they do the Final Five, or will they give college hockey the middle finger and just focus on the Minnesota Wild, and the Timberwolves?

Another interesting topic of discussion is whether the Big Ten Network will try to move the conference games to days other than Friday and Saturday. I heard some guy on Gopher radio for one of the football games say the the BTN may want hockey on slower tv days because Saturday is where football will rein. I can't remember who said this or what credible source he has but it was interesting to think about.

Sheesh. There were a ton of Fighting Sioux jerseys in evidence at the Icebreaker in Kansas City in October and they weren't even playing in the darn thing. My wife, to me, on opening night of the tourney: "I didn't know North Dakota was in this".

UND has a great following but there is also something special behind the jerseys. I've met fans of other programs who love the Sioux jersey so much that they buy one because its kind of like art. Not any different than Minnesota Wild fans buying Blackhawks jerseys so although a lot of them are fans, some may just be wearing a historic jersey.

 

[mnstate0fhockey]

I'm not sure this 100% true right now. We've seen programs like UND and UMD go up against Minnesota and win and I don't think if your a top player in Minnesota that you automatically go to the U of M.

The Gophers have gotten the vast majority of Twin Cities recruits that they have gone after (save say those from Edina). Now, some of the guys they have recruited haven't exactly panned out recently, but they rarely miss on Twin Cities kids.

Gersich had several good reasons a part from liking UND for not choosing Minnesota, and Poganski isn't a Twin Cities kid. The Gopher's sphere of influence if you will isn't as strong outside the Twin Cities area.

Also, what program is the best at competing for the best Minnesota kids? The U of M is obviously 1 but UND, Nebraska-Omaha, and Notre Dame, and at times UMD and St. Cloud, get some talented players also. Call me crazy but I think Notre Dame may be the 2nd best at getting the best hockey players in Minnesota.

Like I said above, primarily just Edina and Legacy kids. Elsewhere, not so much. The Gophers haven't had much success with kids out of Edina recently as most end up at prestigeous academic schools out East or the likes of Notre Dame.

 

[Biddco]

Re: Has UND lost in conference realignment?

Notre Dame has had a lot of success out of Edina (for reasons I won't get into here), and recruiting legacies out of Minnesota. Otherwise, not so much.

That is more success than other non-WCHA schools have had. Name brand definitely helps them in getting those recruits.

 

[mnstate0fhockey]

That is more success than other non-WCHA schools have had. Name brand definitely helps them in getting those recruits.

With Edina kids the name brand thing really does seem to be important. I won't go off on a tangent about that, but I have my ideas why. Like I said though, Notre Dame has gotten a lot of Edina kids (Lee, Fogarty, Hurley) and legacies (Lucia), but really haven't had much luck elsewhere in MN.

As for other Edina kids who are playing or committed out East, there is Michael Sit (BC), the Everson brothers (Harvard), Parker Reno (RPI), Matt Nelson (Princeton) to name a few.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Has UND lost in conference realignment?

Still leaves the BTHC as "the" power conference in college hockey. Not that it won't eventually prove to be anyways.

What it might actually accomplish is the slowing of the same, slow slide into mediocrity that it's football conference took.

From 1988 until 2008 (21 seasons) when there were at first 12, and later 16 teams in the NCAA field, there were always either 3 or 4 Big 10 teams in the NCAAs, except for 2004 when all 5 made it.

The last four seasons, not so much. 2 in 2009, 2 in 2010, 1 in 2011, and finally 3 again last year, when Michigan St. snuck into the at-large field. You put all 6 teams into the same conference, you're pretty much guaranteed at least 2 make the big dance. But anyone who thinks the halcyon days of 12-15 years ago with 4 or even 5 of the teams making it, will return with a 6 team conference, forget it.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

What it might actually accomplish is the slowing of the same, slow slide into mediocrity that it's football conference took.

From 1988 until 2008 (21 seasons) when there were at first 12, and later 16 teams in the NCAA field, there were always either 3 or 4 Big 10 teams in the NCAAs, except for 2004 when all 5 made it.

The last four seasons, not so much. 2 in 2009, 2 in 2010, 1 in 2011, and finally 3 again last year, when Michigan St. snuck into the at-large field. You put all 6 teams into the same conference, you're pretty much guaranteed at least 2 make the big dance. But anyone who thinks the halcyon days of 12-15 years ago with 4 or even 5 of the teams making it, will return with a 6 team conference, forget it.

The Big Ten HC has far more resources, far better name recognition nationally, and a far better TV deal (which translates into far more national exposure). You're fooling yourself if you don't think this will translate into recruiting advantages long-term.

If I were the Gophers, I'd stop playing UND regularly indefinitely. Would almost completely eliminate UND's visibility in the Twin Cities. Hard to imagine all this would be good for UND's recruiting foot print in the Twin Cities.

 

[dggoddard]

Re: Has UND lost in conference realignment?

What it might actually accomplish is the slowing of the same, slow slide into mediocrity that it's football conference took.

From 1988 until 2008 (21 seasons) when there were at first 12, and later 16 teams in the NCAA field, there were always either 3 or 4 Big 10 teams in the NCAAs, except for 2004 when all 5 made it.

The last four seasons, not so much. 2 in 2009, 2 in 2010, 1 in 2011, and finally 3 again last year, when Michigan St. snuck into the at-large field. You put all 6 teams into the same conference, you're pretty much guaranteed at least 2 make the big dance. But anyone who thinks the halcyon days of 12-15 years ago with 4 or even 5 of the teams making it, will return with a 6 team conference, forget it.

Past performance is no indicator of future results especially in this case.

With only 20 conference games and even minor future tweeks to the Pairwise Formula will impact participation in the tourney. I'd be shocked if the B1G didn't average slightly over 3 teams a year over the next 10 years.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Has UND lost in conference realignment?

I won't be. I'm guessing the mainstream media is itching to start covering more "traditional" BIG opponents that casual hockey fans and non-hockey fans in the area can relate to.

I guess what I meant by my post was that I don't see any coverage of college hockey at all in the Twin Cities media, even the gophers. You might get a game day article, or a short summary of the previous night's game. Unless the hockey team happens to be doing a joint fundraiser with the Vikings, you won't hear about it. Unfortunately, the Twin Cities are not alone in this regard, but it's a pretty clear indication of the status of hockey as a niche sport.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Has UND lost in conference realignment?

Past performance is no indicator of future results especially in this case.

With only 20 conference games and even minor future tweeks to the Pairwise Formula will impact participation in the tourney. I'd be shocked if the B1G didn't average slightly over 3 teams a year over the next 10 years.

Sure. And my post was at least partially in jest.

I fully expect the BTHC to average about 3 teams, or slightly more than 3 teams in the tournament each year. Why wouldn't it? If the WCHA as an 8 and 10 team league could get 4 in quite regularily, the BTHC should be no different.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

I guess what I meant by my post was that I don't see any coverage of college hockey at all in the Twin Cities media, even the gophers. You might get a game day article, or a short summary of the previous night's game. Unless the hockey team happens to be doing a joint fundraiser with the Vikings, you won't hear about it. Unfortunately, the Twin Cities are not alone in this regard, but it's a pretty clear indication of the status of hockey as a niche sport.

I guess I don't understand. The Gophers get plenty of coverage in the Twin Cities right now. Why would that change?

All but one game is televised this year. They are talked about a good deal on 1500 ESPN and KFAN (Lou Nanne, Kevin Gorg, Tom Chorske, Beyond the Pond, ect...). They get more newspaper coverage than most teams in the country too.

Playing traditional Big Ten opponents that casual fans can relate to will likely only increase interest and coverage in my opinion.

 

[mnstate0fhockey]

Sure. And my post was at least partially in jest.

I fully expect the BTHC to average about 3 teams, or slightly more than 3 teams in the tournament each year. Why wouldn't it? If the WCHA as an 8 and 10 team league could get 4 in quite regularily, the BTHC should be no different.

I think both the B1G and NCHC will have top teams that make it regularly and door mats that don't as often.