Harvard Hockey 2010-11

[dave1381]

Re: An Era of Good Feelings

Re: An Era of Good Feelings

I definitely think we' re coming closer together, LOL.

Yup, almost there.

Harvard's been a ranked team most years, finished high in the standings, won the Beanpot, Ivy Titles, etc. Most programs would certainly envy their degree of success without question. The only blotch on that record would be not being able to continue to replicate that same kind of success through the playoffs over the last few years. Occasionally, most teams will lose to a lower ranked opponent, especially in a single game elimination. It happens. But when a pattern of losing playoff games to lower seeds develops, I don't think it's unreasonable either to try to figure out what else might be needed to help get over that hump (without replacing coaches or an infusion of more allstar talent)

Ok, though I would add
-- Harvard is 20-1 in the ECAC quarterfinals the last 10 years since the ECAC split, and a lot of these games weren't in doubt. Some of these years of course Harvard had a high seed and drew a lousy team, but I think 01-02 and the last three years where all seasons where people thought the series would be a lot closer than they were. So give Katey credit for that.
-- Both this year and last year you could make a pretty strong case that Harvard was an underdog despite being at home.
-- I think some years to some degree both Katey and Jeff overachieved in the regular season and came back to earth in the postseason. I don't think Jeff's quite as bad as you'd think from "1-10 in the ECAC quarterfinals in the last 5 years and 1-6 as higher seed" nor is Katey quite as bad you'd think from "1-4 in the ECAC semifinals the last 5 years and 1-3 as the higher seed."

 

[ARM]

Re: Harvard Hockey 2010-11

My thoughts on Harvard of recent history. Harvard has always been a skating team that wants to get up and down the ice. They put a lot of pressure on the opponent, because they have a number of players who can really scoot. But at least when I saw them in November, though they could create a lot of scoring chances, they had a tough time putting them in the net. A team that plays a wide-open, up-tempo game is bound to give up some scoring chances against. It's not a case of their current goaltending being awful, but it is not at the level to which they are accustomed. Boe developed into a solid goalie over the course of her career, and maybe Bellamy will too, but I'd say vulnerability in net and trouble finishing chances were the two things that kept Harvard at a fringe top-ten team rather than a legitimate national threat. If goaltending is not upgraded either by addition or from within, then Harvard may need to alter their style to one that slows the game down and ensures that the goalie is always well supported.

 

[dave1381]

My thoughts on Harvard of recent history. Harvard has always been a skating team that wants to get up and down the ice. They put a lot of pressure on the opponent, because they have a number of players who can really scoot. But at least when I saw them in November, though they could create a lot of scoring chances, they had a tough time putting them in the net. A team that plays a wide-open, up-tempo game is bound to give up some scoring chances against. It's not a case of their current goaltending being awful, but it is not at the level to which they are accustomed. Boe developed into a solid goalie over the course of her career, and maybe Bellamy will too, but I'd say vulnerability in net and trouble finishing chances were the two things that kept Harvard at a fringe top-ten team rather than a legitimate national threat. If goaltending is not upgraded either by addition or from within, then Harvard may need to alter their style to one that slows the game down and ensures that the goalie is always well supported.

I completely agree, and Boe is exactly who I had in mind when I thought of the caliber of goalie I expected.

I still don't get why this team was so terrible on PK.

 

[Veritas]

Re: Harvard Hockey 2010-11

I am not one with lots of statistics or records of past years. What I did notice in the Dartmouth game was that passing was below the usual standards. Far to many passes went from Crimson jerseys to green jerseys. Lots of passes were not quick clean passes but slooow passes easily intercepted, especially long cross ice passes. Few crisp clean passes. The only player with much success in cross ice passes seemed to be Pucci.

Harvard also lacks having a player with the hands to find the corners of the net

 

[dave1381]

I am not one with lots of statistics or records of past years. What I did notice in the Dartmouth game was that passing was below the usual standards. Far to many passes went from Crimson jerseys to green jerseys. Lots of passes were not quick clean passes but slooow passes easily intercepted, especially long cross ice passes. Few crisp clean passes. The only player with much success in cross ice passes seemed to be Pucci.

Harvard also lacks having a player with the hands to find the corners of the net

Agreed. Team was flat all around.

 

[rinkydink]

Re: Harvard Hockey 2010-11

I think one of the problems was that the Crimson had such an easy series against St. Lawrence. On the other hand, the Big Green was tempered through a very tough series vs. Clarkson. Just think that when they needed to bear down, they fell flat.

The bigger problem for the Crimson as they go forward is the loss of 4 of their top 6 scorers and that doesn't include Wheeler who had developed into a solid two-way performer. I think Harvard will be more impacted by graduation than any other ECAC team. Unless they are bringing in a real stopper and some bonafide scoring, they might continue to struggle.

 

[dave1381]

I think one of the problems was that the Crimson had such an easy series against St. Lawrence. On the other hand, the Big Green was tempered through a very tough series vs. Clarkson. Just think that when they needed to bear down, they fell flat.

The bigger problem for the Crimson as they go forward is the loss of 4 of their top 6 scorers and that doesn't include Wheeler who had developed into a solid two-way performer. I think Harvard will be more impacted by graduation than any other ECAC team.

Agreed, basically they have no senior class. That's not a good recipe for next season.

Unless they are bringing in a real stopper and some bonafide scoring, they might continue to struggle.

Sure, they need to improve a lot from within or from recruiting to even make it back to the league semis.

But I wouldn't say "continuing to struggle" to refer to a team that placed 2nd in their conference and had a dominant ECAC quarterfinal series. Maybe "start to struggle" or "might continue to look as bad as their last game of the season"

 

[rinkydink]

Re: Harvard Hockey 2010-11

I am sure that if I said "might continue to look as bad as their last game of the season", you would have had some other more indignant response. So let's go with that one---your words not mine.

As for being dominant in the quarterfinals, that may well have been because St. Lawrence was less than dominant in the quarterfinals, or it may have been that the Crimson was just that good. Based on the semi-final game against Dartmouth, I think it's the former.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Harvard Hockey 2010-11

As for being dominant in the quarterfinals, that may well have been because St. Lawrence was less than dominant in the quarterfinals, or it may have been that the Crimson was just that good. Based on the semi-final game against Dartmouth, I think it's the former.

I very strongly disagree. I mean I'm sure it wasn't SLU's best weekend, like it wasn't Harvard's best weekend, but give some credit where credit is due. SLU beat BC and Mercyhurst this year and beat Clarkson the week before they gave Dartmouth fits. They were a good team and Harvard annihilated them (well at least in the 1st & 3rd periods). I don't think it's fair to completely disregard all this teams accomplishments because of the last game, especially when they were one of the more consistent teams throughout the ECAC during the regular season.

But yes the immediate future doesn't look overly promising. I've never followed recruiting so much, but I don't understand how the 08-09 freshman class was basically empty, esp. coming off a great season in 07-08.

 

[rinkydink]

Re: Harvard Hockey 2010-11

Who was completely disregarding this team's accomplishments? My point was that for whatever reason St. Lawrence didn't show up for the quarterfinals. It's not really relevent who they had beaten previously and by how much. The Crimson to use your word "annihilated" a team that finished 7th in the conference and was inconsistent most of the year, including their big wins against Mercyhurst and BC in the first semester. Probably more telling in my view is that Harvard didn't have a significant out of conference win all year. Does that mean they struggled? Everything is relative. Maybe I have just been spoiled by a team who historically has had much greater success. This year's team just seemed never to be able to play its best against strong teams.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Harvard Hockey 2010-11

I very strongly disagree. I mean I'm sure it wasn't SLU's best weekend, like it wasn't Harvard's best weekend, but give some credit where credit is due. SLU beat BC and Mercyhurst this year and beat Clarkson the week before they gave Dartmouth fits. They were a good team and Harvard annihilated them (well at least in the 1st & 3rd periods). I don't think it's fair to completely disregard all this teams accomplishments because of the last game, especially when they were one of the more consistent teams throughout the ECAC during the regular season.
.

Sorry Dave, looking at the stats, I would have to tend to agree with rinkydink on this one. I'm not saying that Harvard deserves no credit either, but it seems that SLU played more poorly than usual and Harvard didn't dominate as thoroughly as the scoreboard might suggest. As you mentioned, Harvard seemed to forget to play the second period of both games versus SLU. Yes, it is impressive that Harvard scored 14 goals in the 2 games anyways. However, in one game Harvard scored 7 goals on only 21 shots; in the other 6 goals on 24 shots. One goal was an EN. The starting goalie was chased in both games, so perhaps a big part of the issue was that the goaltender was having an off series--and/or the D corps was. And part of the equation as well was special teams: both teams were highly penalized, an ongoing nemesis, but as SLU is even less effective on the PP this season (10.5%) than Harvard, it did not come back to bite Harvard as it typically has against other opponents. Harvard's power play was more effective than usual, and managed to score 3 of its goals on the PP.

SLU was very inconsistent this season, and looked underwhelming much of the time. As impressive as the wins vs BC and Mercyhurst were, with only a couple of weeks left in the season, there was still a possibility SLU might miss the playoffs, finishing as low as a tie for 9th/10th.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Harvard Hockey 2010-11

rinkydink - Ok, sure, you're right, it all depends on your perspective. Compared to Harvard teams that had Olympians and an All-American goalie this team struggled all year. But within the class of programs that didn't manage to recruit those players, they still did well this year. This team met my expectations out of conference (go 1-6 against a brutal schedule) and exceeded my expectations within conference, given the talent on the roster. You look in this thread, many of us thought they'd go closer to .500 this year.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Harvard Hockey 2010-11

As impressive as the wins vs BC and Mercyhurst were, with only a couple of weeks left in the season, there was still a possibility SLU might miss the playoffs, finishing as low as a tie for 9th/10th.

Sure, but they didn't, they beat Clarkson and they finished 7th in the league. Ok I probably slipped in calling SLU a "good team" but it's still an accomplishment to finish 2nd in your league and advance to the ECAC semifinals in convincing (though not perfectly consistent) fashion no matter who the opponent.

Anyway, I'm not even sure what the point of this discussion is any more. I've made my case on my perspective on this team, and you've all made yours. I'm done for now.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Harvard Hockey 2010-11

The bigger problem for the Crimson as they go forward is the loss of 4 of their top 6 scorers and that doesn't include Wheeler who had developed into a solid two-way performer. I think Harvard will be more impacted by graduation than any other ECAC team. Unless they are bringing in a real stopper and some bonafide scoring, they might continue to struggle.

Actually, I'm not sure it's nearly as much doom and gloom as you might think either.

While the two high-profile national U18/U22 team calibre players going into the program are actually D, that should certainly help support the existing goaltending, as well as you would think should also help quarterback a good power play, and help the penalty kill, among other issues.

No question the 5 graduating players will be missed, not just in what they contribute to scoring. But let's take a look at the scoring they provided at even strength. Actually, the two top scorers as far as goals go are returning, in Dempsey and Pucci, and of those graduating only Buesser scored in the double digits with 10.

In total, the 5 graduating players contributed 27 goals of the 75 Harvard scored at even strength for the season, or about 36% overall. And only 2 other teams in the conference, Cornell and Dartmouth, scored more goals than that.

But here's where it gets interesting. In the first half of the season, the seniors contributed 15 goals of the 31 scored in the first 16 games: 48%. In the second half though, the seniors' contributions dropped to 12 goals of the 44 scored over the last 16 games: 27%. Goals by players who will be returning actually doubled from 16 in the first half to 32 in the back half.

Looking at games in Feb/Mar alone, the 3rd and 4th line forwards who apparently rotated ice time on a line, contributed 13 goals in the last 11 games. That compares reasonably well to the 16 goals scored by the 1st and 2nd liners combined, suggesting a fair bit of parity within the team as far as offensive contribution as the season progressed.

It would seem obvious that Harvard may have to change its approach some, and need to rely far more on scoring-by-committee than they might have done in the past, but neither do they have to try to replace any players with Olympian-like stats.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Harvard Hockey 2010-11

I just wanted to share one Harvard fun fact.

The school's athletic program will get a lot of attention because the men's basketball program won a share of its first Ivy title in school history. Despite the win today, Harvard finished the winter as the reigning Ivy champion in just 3 of 33 Ivy sports (the lowest share of Ivy titles held since 1979), and none of the 16 Ivy women's sports (the first time this has happened in 30 years).

 

[rinkydink]

Re: Harvard Hockey 2010-11

Actually, I'm not sure it's nearly as much doom and gloom as you might think either.

While the two high-profile national U18/U22 team calibre players going into the program are actually D, that should certainly help support the existing goaltending, as well as you would think should also help quarterback a good power play, and help the penalty kill, among other issues.

No question the 5 graduating players will be missed, not just in what they contribute to scoring. But let's take a look at the scoring they provided at even strength. Actually, the two top scorers as far as goals go are returning, in Dempsey and Pucci, and of those graduating only Buesser scored in the double digits with 10.

In total, the 5 graduating players contributed 27 goals of the 75 Harvard scored at even strength for the season, or about 36% overall. And only 2 other teams in the conference, Cornell and Dartmouth, scored more goals than that.

But here's where it gets interesting. In the first half of the season, the seniors contributed 15 goals of the 31 scored in the first 16 games: 48%. In the second half though, the seniors' contributions dropped to 12 goals of the 44 scored over the last 16 games: 27%. Goals by players who will be returning actually doubled from 16 in the first half to 32 in the back half.

Looking at games in Feb/Mar alone, the 3rd and 4th line forwards who apparently rotated ice time on a line, contributed 13 goals in the last 11 games. That compares reasonably well to the 16 goals scored by the 1st and 2nd liners combined, suggesting a fair bit of parity within the team as far as offensive contribution as the season progressed.

It would seem obvious that Harvard may have to change its approach some, and need to rely far more on scoring-by-committee than they might have done in the past, but neither do they have to try to replace any players with Olympian-like stats.

Your numbers are very interesting. I wonder how the first semester/second semester comparison holds up against other teams in the league.

My concern is that Harvard is graduating 44% of its overall goal scoring (43% in conference) and I think that will certainly be among the highest percentage, if not the highest, in the conference. As Dave has stated, the recent recruiting has drastically tapered off. I do hope those two high profile freshman defensemen will contribute immediately and help protect the goal, but without the ability to possess the puck in the offensive end, that challenge might be greater than you think.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Harvard Hockey 2010-11

As Dave has stated, the recent recruiting has drastically tapered off.

Well I was particularly highlighting that the entering class of 08-09 was empty, and had Harvard had a mere average recruiting class rather than a nonexistent one, Harvard could have accomplished more the last 3 seasons and be in much better position for next season. I don't think it'll matter too much in 2 years. I think the 07-08, 09-10, 10-11 entering classes have been more typical of what to expect for Harvard going forward rather than 08-09.

 

[gbb]

Re: Harvard Hockey 2010-11

No question the 5 graduating players will be missed,

 

[Skate79]

Re: An Era of Good Feelings

Re: An Era of Good Feelings

So do I have this about right? In your mind Princeton's disappointing playoff results have been attributable to a significant extent due to their coaching. Despite gloating in that same post about Harvard's coach, you later note (after you've had an unfortunate fall off your high horse) that Harvard's lost the semis 4 of the last 5 times, and opine they just need a better goaltender, and maybe an Olympian or two.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't two of those losses still happen with a goalie who earned the NCAA record for save percentage?

See any irony in your inconsistency? Of course you won't.

Teams don't necessarily need great coaching to win a lot of games with a bunch of Olympians and an all-star goalie. The very best coaches achieve during the season at levels beyond expectation based on their rosters on paper, and tend to also manage to inspire their teams to play their very best hockey once they get deep in the playoffs. But teams with good coaches don't always find a way to succeed either if the talent isn't competitive, or the injury bug hits.

Last year a couple of things struck me while watching the NCAA Frozen Four. First, that Cornell was playing way over their heads, infinitely better than they had for most of the season. The team looked so driven, yet loose and totally in sync with each other--despite not really having the wealth of talent that some other teams may have had, and an extremely depleted roster. Similarly, that UMD, after an underwhelming start to the season, was also firing on all cylinders. But what struck me most, (well, other than Shannon Miller's jacket ), was how unbelievably loose Miller was on the bench, cracking jokes and clearly having lots of fun with her players in the middle of an OT final. I'd never been much of a fan of Miller, but gained a whole new level of respect for her after last year's performance.

To me, Dartmouth's win over Harvard last night wasn't particularly surprising. Harvard has shown a lack of discipline over much of the season in taking a large number of penalties versus other teams. A further issue it that its penalty kill has been mediocre, as has its own power play. Contrast that to the success of Dartmouth's power play this season, and you had a recipe for Dartmouth to prevail purely on the basis of special teams. Dartmouth took advantage. Two of Dartmouth's goals came on the PP in short order and put the nail in the Crimson Coffin in the second period.

Uh, no you don't have it right because you took my posts out of context and threw them together to make a point which I still don't get because it doesn't make sense. First, I wasn't blaming everything on Kampersal. If you read my posts carefully, I explained that I am not close to the Princeton program and don't know how the administration feels about him. I pointed out that PrincetonFan had more insight into this situation. I was merely commenting on the fact that they have had winning programs during the regular season yet have failed to get out of the first round. Which is fact, not fiction.

Harvard does need better goaltending and more talent on their roster. And I won't back off my praise of Katey Stone because she had 12 freshman and sophomores on her roster this year and guided the team to a second place finish. I don't know many people back in October who were that confident in a top four finish for the Crimson. Katey Stone's coaching acumen is well known and respected. AND SHE GOT US PAST THE FIRST ROUND.

That said, the past few years have seen a Harvard team that has not had the mental or physical toughness of teams in the past. Olympians certainly help but I'm thinking more about players like Nicole Corriero and Sarah Wilson who could get a big goal or make a tough play when needed. Sarah was huge her freshman year leading Harvard to the ECAC tournment crown.

You are also off base on Kessler. She was highly recruited and had a serious knee injury her freshman year. That she played at all that year was very surprising. Her best year was '08 but even in '09 while not having the best start still finished strong. Kessler carried the team last year until she got hurt and her loss was huge. You can't blame her necessarily for the RPI loss in the playoffs. Van der Bliek played out of her mind and we missed glorious chances to score and put them away. It was 'one of those games'.

There are no inconsistencies in my remarks. Only your attempt to piece together my comments to somehow prove a point that escapes me.

 

[Watson Rink]

Re: An Era of Good Feelings

Re: An Era of Good Feelings

Dave 1381 wrote:

"I've never followed recruiting so much, but I don't understand how the 08-09 freshman class was basically empty, esp. coming off a great season in 07-08."

Wasn't the fundamental problem that everyone realized during that recruiting season that Harvard was going to graduate only one senior -- Cahow -- and that any incoming first-years would have to compete for ice time with 21 returning veterans? Compounded by the growing realization, as that recruiting season was winding down, that those 21 returning veterans were having unusually strong results? Unless a prospective was resigned to being nailed to the pine her first year, most any other program would seem to offer her more opportunity than Harvard's stuffed roster.

Conversely, one hopes that the opportunity for immediate playing time has been an incentive in recruiting the class of '15 and will be for the class of '16 as well.

Interesting observation: note how far the wayback machine has to be dialed to reach the time when the currently graduating senios were starting to show up on Hux's list...the chatter on this board then was....had Katie Johnston dropped off the team? should Jennifer Sifers be switched from forward to the back line? was incoming goalie phenom Christina Kessler going to miss her first season due to injury? and would that dim Julie Chu's chances of participating in one more NCAA tournament? The 4OT game against Wisconsin hadn't been played yet....Even when the current sophomores/rising juniors were committing, Sarah V was still about to lace 'em up for another season....Seems like the Mesolithic Era now; or maybe the Mesozoic....