Harvard Crimson 2014-15

[HockeyEast33]

All that Assabet talent is correct but the problem is not the talent it is the guidance. If they were guided by their former coach you can rest assured the score would have been nothing like what just happened. Taking nothing away from the offensive powerhouse BC. Harvard is not going in the right direction they are getting worse instead of better. All that talent and 2 hour practices.....what on earth are you practicing....after that display I would have to say not much.

Their former coach has coached 1 system for 10-15 years and won by having overwhelming talent and a core group of players each season that had played that system for 5-10 years when they were playing other club teams that had only played together a season or two. This a good recipe for club hockey but doesn't work at a college level where you have frequent player turn over and have to teach every year (which is not his strength). This is one reason he isn't coaching prep or college hockey.

That being said, would definitely agree that Stone and staff are doing a horrible job with a very talented team. That kind of a whooping is inexcusable.

 

[Call It]

Their former coach has coached 1 system for 10-15 years and won by having overwhelming talent and a core group of players each season that had played that system for 5-10 years when they were playing other club teams that had only played together a season or two. This a good recipe for club hockey but doesn't work at a college level where you have frequent player turn over and have to teach every year (which is not his strength). This is one reason he isn't coaching prep or college hockey.

That being said, would definitely agree that Stone and staff are doing a horrible job with a very talented team. That kind of a whooping is inexcusable.

Assabet never had to play well without the puck or a solid D game. Once in a while they would have to compete but usually won by having a team depth of talent. Look at Harvard's 1st line +/-, seriously some are -5!

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

This was the game I thought of, because it was one of the best Harvard teams ever:
http://www.collegehockeystats.net/0203/boxes/wdarhar1.m16

That year, we beat Dartmouth 9-0 up at Thompson early in the season. The Big Green were missing a few players for that game and half the team was supposedly sick. They won when it counted though in March. I remember that game vividly. Dartmouth could have used a cardboard cutout for a goalie and still won the game. It was that bad.

I think today was an aberration but we'll see tomorrow. As Dave pointed out, Harvard doesn't get blown out all that often under Katey Stone and I really want to believe that the team is in some kind of funk that will work itself out eventually. There is just too much talent for them to lose consistently. The track record says that they will figure it out.

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

The only losses on par with this in Katey Stone's career were a 10-3 loss to SLU in 1998 and a 11-2 loss to Brown in 1997. The worst losses since then were the 6-0 Providence game in the early 01-02 season and the two 6-1 losses to UMD in the 05-06 year, back when Harvard was more prone to having Olympic-year swings. Harvard had only once ever allowed more than 7 goals in a game since 1998 (the 8-5 loss to UMD in early 01-02).

Harvard will have to try to turn things around like the 11-12 Saints team that got slaughtered 6-1 & 7-1 in the regular season and then came back and ended Harvard's season in ECACs.

This is why you can't pass judgement on a team in November. Too early in the season. Everyone was writing off the Patriots after they got blown out by the Chiefs and had Brady traded to nowheresville. Well, how do they look today? Beating up on the supposed strength of their schedule. Do you think a rematch would yield the same results in January?

I discount those losses in the '05-06 season because we simply didn't have the talent to match up against UMD. You can't make that same excuse about today's loss however. Harvard has enough talent to skate with BC. I have no problem with the loss but it should have been way more competitive. We'll see what this team looks like at the end of January.

 

[DC78-82]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

Ugly looking score. This game is either a wake-up game, or just end the season game, because BC might be a better team, even a MUCH better team, but they aren't THAT much better. In following this team since '08, I don't think I could have ever imagined a score like that.

They are that much better.

BC is on a completely different level. They ARE that much better, at least than Harvard, or a number of the other teams they've seen. The challenge for them in this season is staying sharp, but from what I saw of their 4th line today, if the top two have trouble, they have a bench full of support act capable of giving a lot of teams fits by themselves.

 

[hockey21]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

Watched the game tonight... have to say that the result was a combination of poor play by Harvard and good execution from BC. However, BC looks like a team that is ranked #1 in the country. BC is just a level above Harvard in multiple aspects of the game; the quality of shots and passes, conditioning and faceoffs.

Again, not the best game tonight but I'm sure this team will bounce back tomorrow against Northeastern. Should have lots of energy and will to win.

 

[FiveHoleFrenzy]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

Watched the game tonight... have to say that the result was a combination of poor play by Harvard and good execution from BU. However, BU looks like a team that is ranked #1 in the country. BU is just a level above Harvard in multiple aspects of the game; the quality of shots and passes, conditioning and faceoffs.

Again, not the best game tonight but I'm sure this team will bounce back tomorrow against Northeastern. Should have lots of energy and will to win.

This is a bit, right?

 

[CrossCheck]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

Watched the game tonight... have to say that the result was a combination of poor play by Harvard and good execution from BU. However, BU looks like a team that is ranked #1 in the country. BU is just a level above Harvard in multiple aspects of the game; the quality of shots and passes, conditioning and faceoffs.

Again, not the best game tonight but I'm sure this team will bounce back tomorrow against Northeastern. Should have lots of energy and will to win.

BU?? ok there Chief NoSeeummgood.

 

[vicb]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

This is a bit, right?

Give the kid a break, it is only his/her 3rd post.

 

[hockey21]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

Yes, I meant BC instead of BU.. Guess working night shift is not my forte after all... going to edit the post!

 

[wwhyte]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

BC is on a completely different level. They ARE that much better, at least than Harvard, or a number of the other teams they've seen. The challenge for them in this season is staying sharp, but from what I saw of their 4th line today, if the top two have trouble, they have a bench full of support act capable of giving a lot of teams fits by themselves.

Hey DC -- saw you sitting behind the Harvard goal in the third period (best seats in the house) but not till you were leaving so didn't have time to say hi. Hi!

I agree, the fourth line is exactly what you want from a fourth line -- a series of speedy pests with good defensive minds who can keep possession against a determined opposing D. Grieves nearly put the puck in the net a number of times and got an assist on the last goal, which was lovely and entirely fair. Haley McLean, who might have hoped to be on the top three lines, has solved her penalty problems from last year and is the workhorse, nominally on right wing but in the center of the ice more often than not in the offensive zone. Danielle Doherty is having the season of her career as a graduate student. I'm sure you remember the 3-1 loss to UNH last year (or, as you remember it, the 3-1 victory over BC) where, to look at the passing, you'd think none of the players had seen each other on the ice before that evening. This year's team is completely different. Everyone knows where everyone else is. And that goes all the way down to the fourth line.

Sorry to hijack the Harvard thread...

 

[wwhyte]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

BC is on a completely different level. They ARE that much better, at least than Harvard, or a number of the other teams they've seen. The challenge for them in this season is staying sharp, but from what I saw of their 4th line today, if the top two have trouble, they have a bench full of support act capable of giving a lot of teams fits by themselves.

Actually, DC, another question for you -- I assume you saw the Wisco / UNH game tonight, any thoughts about BC v Wisco?

 

[dave1381]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

Yeah, I should've mentioned the 2003 ECAC final on the short list of Harvard blowouts, if I'd mentioned the two UMD games in 05-06.

It's clear BC has come into the season ready to go and has continued to improve through October, while Harvard has started later and also hasn't gotten it together with the games they've had. Harvard should be better competition for BC in February or March, but a lot will have to go right in terms of improvement and in-game luck for Harvard to have a chance.

 

[driventoit]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

Sorry to hijack the Harvard thread...

Please, no apologies. We're ripe for the taking.

But I'll follow up your BC line talk with confessing continued befuddlement at the Harvard combos. This may seem like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic after yesterday's sinking, but the ship has been taking on water for weeks and we now seem to need a new one. Will a more practiced, knowledgeable eye than mine agree that D'Oench with Reber and Crowe is one apple with two oranges, and that all the subsequent misalinements follow from this? Earlier (short-lived) mixes with the freshmen led to crisper, energetic play all around, but there hasn't been any rhythm or precision for weeks. Why expect to suddenly find it with these lines against a juggernaut at Conte? (BTW, isn't this also setting D'Oench up for a senior year with two strangers? Is this even a valid concern??) And I'm not endorsing the "support your star" nonsense that has been recently, persuasively called out on this thread, but simply saying: find a way to let loose your #1 goal scorer and see if that doesn't allow everyone else on the ice to flourish, or at least to play top ten hockey. What will that take?

Everything was nasty yesterday, but I think it could/should have been a good-old three or four goal loss.

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

Probably the best thing you can say about today's game is that Harvard won. It was ugly and sloppy at times with little cohesion and a lot of standing around watching the puck. It's almost like the team needs a refresher course in how to play the game. Seriously, I can't remember a team with this amount of talent looking so disorganized and at times disinterested.

It took Harvard the better part of the first period to get their skating legs and by that time Northeastern had a 2-0 lead courtesy of a softie given up by Laing from the left face-off circle and a 5 on 3 PP goal (twice in this game, Harvard was down 5 on 3. Where's the discipline?). With about 7 minutes left, Harvard got going and Miye D'Oench converted a nice give and go for her 7th goal of the season. A few minutes later, with Harvard on a PP, Lexie Laing was in the right place at the right time to knock home a rebound and even the game.

Second period saw Harvard come out with some jump and apply pressure on NU. Then NU took its turn and got some decent looks at Liang. Neither team converted and we went to the third where Harvard again on the PK gave up a couple of rebounds, one of which NU turned into a goal. That lead lasted for a couple minutes whereupon Sid Daniels even things up with a half slap, half wrist shot off a rebound in front. Near the ten minute mark, Harvard got the game winner with Hilary Crowe doing the dirty work in front and converting a rebound for her second goal of the season. And that's the way it ended.

Harvard has a long way to go before they can be considered a Frozen Four team. A long way. Poor D zone coverage, sloppy passes, no motion to the offense, poor breakouts, and just an inordinate amount of standing around or reaching for the puck and getting turnstiled by the opposing forward. And Katey played her top ten heavy minutes again. Kalley Armstrong never got off the bench even though she is one of our better penalty killers and very good on face-offs.

I can't believe the coaching staff can't figure it out but at the moment, the team looks confused and unprepared. The line combos aren't working and the D are getting overwhelmed (Michelle Picard is playing way to much). NU is good but not that good and yet they took it to Harvard consistently with the exception of the start of the second period.

 

[Ted Knight]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

does Belichick coach hockey now? a bit of a difference there...

 

[dave1381]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

does Belichick coach hockey now? a bit of a difference there...

Harvard women's hockey and Patriots football are probably the two teams I've followed most closely in the last 16 years, and I don't find that to be such a crazy analogy. Both coaches will retire with a lot of records and titles to their name. Katey's track record is better than what you'd expect from criticism on this board. In terms of recent history, I don't see the sense in giving her all the blame for losing the Olympic gold but none of the credit for coming closer to gold than the previous three US teams. I'd say her only deeply disappointing seasons as Harvard coach were 99-00 & 08-09 (and even then, the 99-00 teams was 2-0-1 against the two teams that played for the national title, and the 08-09 team still won the ECAC regular season title). The 10-11 & 11-12 teams were also disappointing but probably the ceiling for these teams wasn't too much higher. Otherwise I thought her teams have met or exceeded expectations. I don't think most had picked them to win the ECAC title in any of the years in 04, 05, or 06, or make the NCAA final in 04 or 05. Also keep in mind that 10 years ago, most people on this board were saying that Harvard women's hockey would be completely irrelevant by now. But if you look at the Frozen Four teams and top ranked teams from 2001-2005, then aside from Minnesota, Harvard's done better recently than all those programs.

But yes, Friday was the worst loss for Harvard in recent memory, much like the Chiefs loss was the worst for the Patriots in recent memory. So we'll see if Harvard can turn it around too. I am less optimistic about Harvard improving to playoff-contender status than I was for the Patriots at this point, but there is also a lot of room for which it's feasible for Harvard to improve. Katey's teams have always been much better defensively than this one and I expect that she will find a way.

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

Harvard women's hockey and Patriots football are probably the two teams I've followed most closely in the last 16 years, and I don't find that to be such a crazy analogy. Both coaches will retire with a lot of records and titles to their name. Katey's track record is better than what you'd expect from criticism on this board. In terms of recent history, I don't see the sense in giving her all the blame for losing the Olympic gold but none of the credit for coming closer to gold than the previous three US teams. I'd say her only deeply disappointing seasons as Harvard coach were 99-00 & 08-09 (and even then, the 99-00 teams was 2-0-1 against the two teams that played for the national title, and the 08-09 team still won the ECAC regular season title). The 10-11 & 11-12 teams were also disappointing but probably the ceiling for these teams wasn't too much higher. Otherwise I thought her teams have met or exceeded expectations. I don't think most had picked them to win the ECAC title in any of the years in 04, 05, or 06, or make the NCAA final in 04 or 05. Also keep in mind that 10 years ago, most people on this board were saying that Harvard women's hockey would be completely irrelevant by now. But if you look at the Frozen Four teams and top ranked teams from 2001-2005, then aside from Minnesota, Harvard's done better recently than all those programs.

But yes, Friday was the worst loss for Harvard in recent memory, much like the Chiefs loss was the worst for the Patriots in recent memory. So we'll see if Harvard can turn it around too. I am less optimistic about Harvard improving to playoff-contender status than I was for the Patriots at this point, but there is also a lot of room for which it's feasible for Harvard to improve. Katey's teams have always been much better defensively than this one and I expect that she will find a way.

I think the '05-'06 season was Katey's best coaching job. She lost a lot of depth from the prior season through graduation and the Olympics (Sarah Vallaincourt, Julie Chu and Caitlin Cahow). Yet the team managed to finish fourth in the conference and took the ECAC title by beating SLU, the #1 seed and Brown, the #3 seed (after trailing 3-0) in SLU's building. That was a year where she was forced to play her bench because of a lack of star power. I just wish she could learn from that experience and build team confidence by playing everyone regardless of the situation. Right now, the team is playing as a collection of individuals, not as a cohesive unit.

 

[HockeyEast33]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

Assabet never had to play well without the puck or a solid D game. Once in a while they would have to compete but usually won by having a team depth of talent. Look at Harvard's 1st line +/-, seriously some are -5!

Only on this thread would I continue this - because it is so relevant to a Harvard team that is almost 50% Assabet players, especially amongst the FR/SO. Totally disagree with "Assabet never had to play well without the puck or a solid D game". That program wins more 1-0 and 2-1 games than any program I can think of and always KNOWS they are going to win them. They did that through adherence to a puck possession and heavily D focused system that was well-ingrained in them by playing together for years as they grew up and being coached by the same group of coaches. If anything, their weakness was not on D but in finishing (except when they had a player like Phoebe Staenz on the roster or, to a much lesser extent, Sydney Daniels or Lexie Laing).

The problem in translating this system to the college level is that college kids don't play together year after year for 5-10 years. 25% of the team (roughly) is new every year. And the current Harvard team has more than 50% non-Assabet kids that likely have not played a similar system. So mixing the much-ingrained Assabet kids with a bunch of other kids from different systems leads to inevitable problems - the Assabet kids trying to adapt to whatever differences exist from what they played for a long time and the other kids trying to synch with the Assabet kids. Until it happens, you get a hot mess and a lot of confusion - which sounds like what is happening at Harvard.

 

[DC78-82]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

Actually, DC, another question for you -- I assume you saw the Wisco / UNH game tonight, any thoughts about BC v Wisco?

Check yer rep.