Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

[dave1381]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

I'm happy with how this season turned out. Frankly I preferred having the season end to a top WCHA team like Wisconsin rather than an eastern foe, so there is something high to aim for next season. Harvard did quite well the year after their last NCAA loss to the Badgers.

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

I'm happy with how this season turned out. Frankly I preferred having the season end to a top WCHA team like Wisconsin rather than an eastern foe, so there is something high to aim for next season. Harvard did quite well the year after their last NCAA loss to the Badgers.

Dave, I wholeheartedly agree. This season exceeded expectations for me. I didn't think Harvard would finish in the top four of the ECAC let alone make it to the NCAA tournament. So they really should be proud of their efforts.

Some takeaways from last night's game:

The final score did not indicate how one sided the game was for me. For long stretches, the Badgers were coming in waves and the Harvard D had real trouble head manning the puck to transition from offense to defense. Wisconsin had more skill and speed and used it to pressure the Crimson all over the ice.

Hilary Crowe and Mi'ye D'Oench really came to the forefront this year. They upped their games and it will be fun to watch them next year.

On D, the freshmen, while very good, got exposed during the latter stages of the season. Don't know if it was fatigue or something else but they definitely did not look as good as earlier in the season. And Marisa Gedman needs to be more disciplined and take fewer stupid penalties. Harvard spent way too much time in the sin bin this year.

Really good news is that we have a great goalie tandem for next year. Hope that Laing sees more action so that both goalies will be fresh come playoff time.

We need more skill up front. Sam Reber had a disappointing season as far as I was concerned. She could have and should have done more. Given the number of D returning next year, I would consider putting Jo Pucci up front for more scoring punch. The Crimson simply can't compete against squads from the WCHA without a more consistent offensive effort. Pucci would give them that with her skating and offensive talent.

Tip of the cap to Gina MacDonald and Elizabeth Parker for four solid years of contributing to the program. In their own way, they had an impact even if it didn't translate on the scoresheet. Gina played like a woman possessed in the Yale series. She simply would not be denied. Wish them both every success.

 

[driventoit]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

THIS! to all these post-game posts. A game like no other this season; going down to a really good club. Good luck Badgers!

(And what's with the NC??, given the 1st period elevator music? To have the year's best video, complete with multiple replays, accompanied by soporific jazz was beyond maddening. Given all the pre-game music discussion, maybe that was the MIT band hacking into the audio . . .?)

 

[dave1381]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Well the way, I see it, it'll be impossible for Harvard to have the same forward depth as the scholarship schools and Cornell/BU have controlled recruiting of the elite Canadian players lately.

This year's team was good enough to take half its points against the likes of Clarkson/Cornell/BC because it has enough of a goaltending advantage to make up for the gap in F & D skill otherwise. Like everyone else, it was a bit below Wisconsin and probably well below Minnesota.

The hope then is that next year's team can help to narrow the gap in F & D skills some but still maintain the goaltending advantage. Not easy at F especially considering which top Olympians are coming back, but certainly Harvard can be much better at D.

 

[charlieconway]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Dave, I wholeheartedly agree. This season exceeded expectations for me. I didn't think Harvard would finish in the top four of the ECAC let alone make it to the NCAA tournament. So they really should be proud of their efforts.

Some takeaways from last night's game:

The final score did not indicate how one sided the game was for me. For long stretches, the Badgers were coming in waves and the Harvard D had real trouble head manning the puck to transition from offense to defense. Wisconsin had more skill and speed and used it to pressure the Crimson all over the ice.

Hilary Crowe and Mi'ye D'Oench really came to the forefront this year. They upped their games and it will be fun to watch them next year.

On D, the freshmen, while very good, got exposed during the latter stages of the season. Don't know if it was fatigue or something else but they definitely did not look as good as earlier in the season. And Marisa Gedman needs to be more disciplined and take fewer stupid penalties. Harvard spent way too much time in the sin bin this year.

Really good news is that we have a great goalie tandem for next year. Hope that Laing sees more action so that both goalies will be fresh come playoff time.

We need more skill up front. Sam Reber had a disappointing season as far as I was concerned. She could have and should have done more. Given the number of D returning next year, I would consider putting Jo Pucci up front for more scoring punch. The Crimson simply can't compete against squads from the WCHA without a more consistent offensive effort. Pucci would give them that with her skating and offensive talent.

Tip of the cap to Gina MacDonald and Elizabeth Parker for four solid years of contributing to the program. In their own way, they had an impact even if it didn't translate on the scoresheet. Gina played like a woman possessed in the Yale series. She simply would not be denied. Wish them both every success.

Adding an offensive threat or two up front would do wonders for Harvard's lineup. Nobody would deny the team could use some more scoring punch, especially on the second and third lines. But a player like Reber, who led the team in assists and nearly rattled off a point per game, isn't hurting the Crimson's offensive output. Did you notice it was Reber who found D'Oench with a nifty cross-ice pass on that crazy stick save? She sets up good looks for other forwards as well as any player on the roster.

As far as Harvard competing with the WCHA's top clubs is concerned, I don't think it's a fair expectation. WCHA schools don't have to deal with incredibly strict academic standards, the student/athlete workload balance is entirely different and those programs can award athletic scholarships. There's a reason why three WCHA teams have combined to win every NCAA national title.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Adding an offensive threat or two up front would do wonders for Harvard's lineup. Nobody would deny the team could use some more scoring punch, especially on the second and third lines. But a player like Reber, who led the team in assists and nearly rattled off a point per game, isn't hurting the Crimson's offensive output. Did you notice it was Reber who found D'Oench with a nifty cross-ice pass on that crazy stick save? She sets up good looks for other forwards as well as any player on the roster.

She's done steadily well her three years. I wouldn't call her disappointing either, but maybe a bit more progression in offensive stats would've been nice.

As far as Harvard competing with the WCHA's top clubs is concerned, I don't think it's a fair expectation. WCHA schools don't have to deal with incredibly strict academic standards, the student/athlete workload balance is entirely different and those programs can award athletic scholarships. There's a reason why three WCHA teams have combined to win every NCAA national title.

The program's goal is to win national titles, despite the Ivy League constraints.

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Adding an offensive threat or two up front would do wonders for Harvard's lineup. Nobody would deny the team could use some more scoring punch, especially on the second and third lines. But a player like Reber, who led the team in assists and nearly rattled off a point per game, isn't hurting the Crimson's offensive output. Did you notice it was Reber who found D'Oench with a nifty cross-ice pass on that crazy stick save? She sets up good looks for other forwards as well as any player on the roster.

I did see the cross ice pass; I'm not disputing her ability, it's that I expect more from her because of her talent level. She is a very good player who didn't quite step up as far as Crowe and D'Oench this year. That's all.

As far as Harvard competing with the WCHA's top clubs is concerned, I don't think it's a fair expectation. WCHA schools don't have to deal with incredibly strict academic standards, the student/athlete workload balance is entirely different and those programs can award athletic scholarships. There's a reason why three WCHA teams have combined to win every NCAA national title.

No question that the AI and the academic schedule make it much harder for Harvard to recruit top players. It was much easier when there were fewer programs to compete for a national title. With more programs coming on line and as Dave mentioned, Cornell and BU (and I might add Clarkson to that mix) nabbing the top Canadian prospects, it makes it that much more challenging for Harvard to get to the Frozen Four. I don't want to use the above as excuses because the Crimson do expect to get to the Frozen Four every year; that's the goal. Achieving it is another matter entirely.

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Well the way, I see it, it'll be impossible for Harvard to have the same forward depth as the scholarship schools and Cornell/BU have controlled recruiting of the elite Canadian players lately.

This year's team was good enough to take half its points against the likes of Clarkson/Cornell/BC because it has enough of a goaltending advantage to make up for the gap in F & D skill otherwise. Like everyone else, it was a bit below Wisconsin and probably well below Minnesota.

The hope then is that next year's team can help to narrow the gap in F & D skills some but still maintain the goaltending advantage. Not easy at F especially considering which top Olympians are coming back, but certainly Harvard can be much better at D.

I don't dispute your notion that it will be harder for the Crimson to attract top end talent with BU, Cornell and maybe Clarkson grabbing high end players.

I would say that after watching Wisconsin last night, I think there is a wider gap between Harvard and the Badgers. They really controlled the game for large stretches. Maschmeyer did her best to keep the team within striking distance but that isn't going to win you many games as Yale can attest.

One way Harvard can improve their competitiveness against the WCHA is to schedule games during the regular season more often. Right now, the best we can offer is games against Cornell and Clarkson within the ECAC and BU and BC in HE. That doesn't help us much come March.

 

[mnpokecheck]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

I don't dispute your notion that it will be harder for the Crimson to attract top end talent with BU, Cornell and maybe Clarkson grabbing high end players.

I would say that after watching Wisconsin last night, I think there is a wider gap between Harvard and the Badgers. They really controlled the game for large stretches. Maschmeyer did her best to keep the team within striking distance but that isn't going to win you many games as Yale can attest.

One way Harvard can improve their competitiveness against the WCHA is to schedule games during the regular season more often. Right now, the best we can offer is games against Cornell and Clarkson within the ECAC and BU and BC in HE. That doesn't help us much come March.

There is a price to pay in playing the WCHA teams....if you don't win or at least split, you may not make the NCAAs. The last four years of Harvard playing Minnesota ended in 3 years of MN sweeps and Harvard missing the NCAAs; the fourth year Harvard had a W and a Tie and made the Tourney.

 

[robertearle]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Well the way, I see it, it'll be impossible for Harvard to have the same forward depth as the scholarship schools and Cornell/BU have controlled recruiting of the elite Canadian players lately.

(Why don't Ivy League schools offer scholarships?)

 

[dave1381]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

I don't dispute your notion that it will be harder for the Crimson to attract top end talent with BU, Cornell and maybe Clarkson grabbing high end players.

Right, what you can do is get an elite goalie or two, get a few players into the Olympic program who are marginal to do so, so they develop, and then hope the rest of the team can develop in those players absence. Then you should have a pretty good team when those Olympic players are back, combined with the shorter roster that's thrived. That makes sense and things seem to be going okay.

I would say that after watching Wisconsin last night, I think there is a wider gap between Harvard and the Badgers. They really controlled the game for large stretches. Maschmeyer did her best to keep the team within striking distance but that isn't going to win you many games as Yale can attest.

You also say there is a wide gap between the teams Harvard went .500 against. Yes, there's a wide gap between the skaters, that becomes a narrow gap when you factor in the goaltending. Maybe in that situation the best you can do is a 50-50 chance of winning, but so be it.

One way Harvard can improve their competitiveness against the WCHA is to schedule games during the regular season more often. Right now, the best we can offer is games against Cornell and Clarkson within the ECAC and BU and BC in HE. That doesn't help us much come March.

I don't see the schedule as a significant disadvantage since BU/BC/Cornell/Clarkson aren't far off from the No.2 or No. 3 WCHA team.

This was not the case in 2008, when I think there was a big gap, and Harvard wasn't well prepared for the Frozen Four.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

There is a price to pay in playing the WCHA teams....if you don't win or at least split, you may not make the NCAAs. The last four years of Harvard playing Minnesota ended in 3 years of MN sweeps and Harvard missing the NCAAs; the fourth year Harvard had a W and a Tie and made the Tourney.

That year 09-10 Harvard not only made the tourney but hosted despite probably being the 3rd-best team in their league. So yes, it's a high-risk, high-reward strategy in terms of NCAA prospects.

But I wish we actually had a better selection system that would actually accurately reflect strength-of-schedule so you wouldn't have to worry as much about this strategic nonsense. I don't understand why there isn't a greater consensus to improve the process. I gather the Eastern coaches much think this is all about trying to improve the relative status of the 3rd or 4th best team in the WCHA in any given year, but it's not -- it's also about making the system better so that you'll have more nonconference games between the very top teams, which will happen if you're not unfairly harshly penalized for losing in that situation. What you have now is you get the best in the WCHA playing the middle or worse of other leagues. The one top WCHA team that does now and UND, and their coach is now on record saying that he'd best stop if he actually wants to make the tournament.

So now the Eastern contenders can sit happy now that they have a better chance of getting the final at-large bid over the 3rd or 4th best WCHA team, but they won't get to play the very top WCHA teams during the regular season because of the system, and without that they stand a much weaker chance of beating the likes of Minnesota and Wisconsin come March.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

No question that the AI and the academic schedule make it much harder for Harvard to recruit top players. It was much easier when there were fewer programs to compete for a national title. With more programs coming on line and as Dave mentioned, Cornell and BU (and I might add Clarkson to that mix) nabbing the top Canadian prospects, it makes it that much more challenging for Harvard to get to the Frozen Four. I don't want to use the above as excuses because the Crimson do expect to get to the Frozen Four every year; that's the goal. Achieving it is another matter entirely.

It's interesting that Harvard's recruiting and impact on roster composition as compared to other Top 10/NCAA tournament teams and its other ECAC competition shows striking differences, with fewer Canadians as well as being more skewed towards local talent. It's unclear whether this is a deliberate, or acccidental recruiting strategy.

Other than BC with 2 (always notable for their generally US-only tendencies), no other top team had as few Canadians as Harvard with 3. (Minnesota 4, Wisconsin 9, Clarkson 18, Cornell 17, Quinnipiac 10, Mercyhurst 10, RMU 19, UND 5, BU 9).

Harvard has also become much more New England/East Coast-focused disproportionately versus these other teams as well with 10 players from New England. This compares to Minnesota 0, Wisconsin 2, Clarkson 0, BC 8, Cornell 2, Quinnipiac 3, Mercyhurst 2, RMU 0 and BU 10.

These observations also hold relative to Harvard's other Ivy competitors. Every other Ivy has at least three times as many Canadians (Cornell 17, Princeton 10, Yale 11, Dartmouth 14, Brown 9), and far fewer east coast locals (Cornell 2, Princeton 4, Yale 5, Dartmouth 3, Brown 6). Like Clarkson and Quinnipiac, other ECAC schools eg. SLU (11 Canadians/1 New England) and Colgate (9 Canadians/2 New England) also contrast similarly versus Harvard.

Clearly Harvard is a big draw for local New England-based talent, with BU and BC close behind. The question is, if you have national title aspirations is there sufficient high level local talent to go around between these schools as a roster focus?

The top WCHA school rosters, in addition to their Canadians, not surprisingly, are skewed heavily towards Mid-West-based and local players. Minnesota 15, Wisconsin 10, Clarkson 3, Cornell 1, BC 6, Quinnipiac 7, Mercyhurst 2, RMU 0, UND 15, BU 3. Harvard currently has 4.

Of course, for any school, it's always harder to recruit talent far from home, since distance is typically a key factor in school selection.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Yeah, Harvard has had a steady decline in Canadians: I count 9 on the 02-03 team, 6 on 07-08, and now about 3 as you say.

It does make the Olympics more straightforward for me in 2014. I didn't have as strong a rooting interest in 2002 between Canada & the U.S. -- in part because I wasn't thrilled with the U.S. program prematurely stripping college hockey of so much talent in 2000-01.

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

The one top WCHA team that does now and UND, and their coach is now on record saying that he'd best stop if he actually wants to make the tournament.

So now the Eastern contenders can sit happy now that they have a better chance of getting the final at-large bid over the 3rd or 4th best WCHA team, but they won't get to play the very top WCHA teams during the regular season because of the system, and without that they stand a much weaker chance of beating the likes of Minnesota and Wisconsin come March.

Exactly so in order to find out if UND or Quinnipiac deserves to get in, shouldn't we be encouraging more games between East and West? Because UND could be sitting there after watching last night's game and wonder out loud how much worse they are compared to Harvard. Or Cornell for that matter. It can't be an accident that year after year, this tournament is dominated by the West. I get that Wisco, Minnesota and UMD are recruiting from Canada and the Midwest more so than Harvard and it is a valid point. But something else has to be in play here.

If teams are going to be penalized for losing to a top team, then you will continue to get NCAA tournaments that favor the WCHA. As Dave pointed out, Harvard in '08 lost only one regular season game (to UNH) but when it came to the Frozen Four, Wisconsin dominated us. We just weren't ready for that level of play. That can only change if the system encourages, not discourages head to head during the regular season.

 

[Watson Rink]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Given the number of D returning next year, I would consider putting Jo Pucci up front for more scoring punch. The Crimson simply can't compete against squads from the WCHA without a more consistent offensive effort. Pucci would give them that with her skating and offensive talent.

Fascinating thought......yes, now that Frazer is out of her boot and played regular minutes down the stretch, you count noses and get at least six regular D sans Pucci. Add a new first line consisting of Pucci and two other returning-from-elsewhere lettermen, keep this year's first line intact as a second line, count noses with Parker, Daniels, Crugnale and other returnees and add the incoming first-years, and what have you got? The phrase that dare not speak its name.....no, not SB....FL. It begins with F, continues with O, U, R, L, I....NO! I can't bring myself to say it! It's downright un-Harvardian.

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

It's interesting that Harvard's recruiting and impact on roster composition as compared to other Top 10/NCAA tournament teams and its other ECAC competition shows striking differences, with fewer Canadians as well as being more skewed towards local talent. It's unclear whether this is a deliberate, or acccidental recruiting strategy.

Other than BC with 2 (always notable for their generally US-only tendencies), no other top team had as few Canadians as Harvard with 3. (Minnesota 4, Wisconsin 9, Clarkson 18, Cornell 17, Quinnipiac 10, Mercyhurst 10, RMU 19, UND 5, BU 9).

Harvard has also become much more New England/East Coast-focused disproportionately versus these other teams as well with 10 players from New England. This compares to Minnesota 0, Wisconsin 2, Clarkson 0, BC 8, Cornell 2, Quinnipiac 3, Mercyhurst 2, RMU 0 and BU 10.

These observations also hold relative to Harvard's other Ivy competitors. Every other Ivy has at least three times as many Canadians (Cornell 17, Princeton 10, Yale 11, Dartmouth 14, Brown 9), and far fewer east coast locals (Cornell 2, Princeton 4, Yale 5, Dartmouth 3, Brown 6). Like Clarkson and Quinnipiac, other ECAC schools eg. SLU (11 Canadians/1 New England) and Colgate (9 Canadians/2 New England) also contrast similarly versus Harvard.

Clearly Harvard is a big draw for local New England-based talent, with BU and BC close behind. The question is, if you have national title aspirations is there sufficient high level local talent to go around between these schools as a roster focus?

The top WCHA school rosters, in addition to their Canadians, not surprisingly, are skewed heavily towards Mid-West-based and local players. Minnesota 15, Wisconsin 10, Clarkson 3, Cornell 1, BC 6, Quinnipiac 7, Mercyhurst 2, RMU 0, UND 15, BU 3. Harvard currently has 4.

Of course, for any school, it's always harder to recruit talent far from home, since distance is typically a key factor in school selection.

Well, for Harvard you have to start with the Assabet connection and go from there. In the seventies and early eighties, the men's program had a pipeline of talent from Belmont Hill because of Bill Cleary's connection to the school. Also, and I have no data to back this up, Katey Stone may not have the recruiting budget. The men's basketball program gives Tommy Amaker practically nothing to make recruiting trips so he has to rely on alumni contributions and help from a certain ACC coach who shall go nameless. At one time, Harvard brought in an assistant coach from Minnesota specifically to boost recruiting in that state. She left after one year. I'm sure that Katey would love to snag a few more Canadians (a la Sarah Vaillancourt) but getting them in may be a challenge. That's why her focus could be shifting towards what she knows - New England Preps where admissions has familiarity with the school's academics.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Well, for Harvard you have to start with the Assabet connection and go from there. In the seventies and early eighties, the men's program had a pipeline of talent from Belmont Hill because of Bill Cleary's connection to the school. Also, and I have no data to back this up, Katey Stone may not have the recruiting budget. The men's basketball program gives Tommy Amaker practically nothing to make recruiting trips so he has to rely on alumni contributions and help from a certain ACC coach who shall go nameless. At one time, Harvard brought in an assistant coach from Minnesota specifically to boost recruiting in that state. She left after one year. I'm sure that Katey would love to snag a few more Canadians (a la Sarah Vaillancourt) but getting them in may be a challenge. That's why her focus could be shifting towards what she knows - New England Preps where admissions has familiarity with the school's academics.

It definitely strains credibility that Harvard's roster composition has anything to do with recruiting budgets. I'm quite sure there are plenty of other Ivy League and ECAC/Hockey East schools with far lower budgets than Harvard. Admissions standards similarly are not higher at Harvard than most other Ivys with the possible exception of Cornell, so that's not an explanation either.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

It definitely strains credibility that Harvard's roster composition has anything to do with recruiting budgets. I'm quite sure there are plenty of other Ivy League and ECAC/Hockey East schools with far lower budgets than Harvard.

Agreed

Admissions standards similarly are not higher at Harvard than most other Ivys with the possible exception of Cornell, so that's not an explanation either.

I would guess this is true for Admissions standards for women's hockey recruits, but not for all recruited Harvard athletes (i.e. Harvard choosing to give preferential treatment to women's hockey relative to the average sport at Harvard and relative to other Ivy schools apart from Cornell)

 

[ARM]

Other than BC with 2 (always notable for their generally US-only tendencies), no other top team had as few Canadians as Harvard with 3. (Minnesota 4, Wisconsin 9, Clarkson 18, Cornell 17, Quinnipiac 10, Mercyhurst 10, RMU 19, UND 5, BU 9).

I don't think Minnesota has recruited more Canadian talent over the years than Harvard. The four Canadians on each of Minnesota's last two rosters is pretty much the high-water mark. Three graduate, so it will be down to one (an important one, to be sure) and only one Canadian is committed among the next two recruiting classes, none next year.