What's new
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

Harvard Crimson 2012-2013

Guys off the roster:
Michalek
Max Everson
McNally

Sigh...

McNally's definitely the big loss there. Everson and McNally also both played this semester, so they have to lose a semester of eligibility I'd think.

Edit - Moondog, check your rep. I sent you my best guess but I'd rather not post guesses for the whole world to see.

Al - can u private message me as well? I think I may know why as well. I saw that Everson was grabbed by Omaha so this is obviously something that's been in the works for some time.

Michalek will be back or so he says for now. Not sure on the other guys, but that's 2 Top 6 D so that's a big loss behind the blue line.

Explains the Anderson signing and may have to bring someone (Plant) in early as well.

Yikes!
 
Re: Harvard Crimson 2012-2013

Al - can u private message me as well? I think I may know why as well. I saw that Everson was grabbed by Omaha so this is obviously something that's been in the works for some time.

Michalek will be back or so he says for now. Not sure on the other guys, but that's 2 Top 6 D so that's a big loss behind the blue line.

Explains the Anderson signing and may have to bring someone (Plant) in early as well.

Yikes!

Done...sent it to your rep.

I'd expect the others to be back as well, at least until we know more. Things certainly got tougher for this year's Crimson squad but we'll see how they respond. We still have a good veteran blue line with Biega, Ford, Fick, and Rempel plus I saw Caldwell playing there last night I think. Depth is the problem right now. Need to stay healthy.
 
Re: Harvard Crimson 2012-2013

Blackwell cleared and in the lineup tonight, according to Blackwell's twitter account.
 
Re: Harvard Crimson 2012-2013

Guys off the roster:
Michalek
Max Everson
McNally

Sigh...

McNally's definitely the big loss there. Everson and McNally also both played this semester, so they have to lose a semester of eligibility I'd think.

Edit - Moondog, check your rep. I sent you my best guess but I'd rather not post guesses for the whole world to see.

Well I guess if Girard is going to throw things out there no harm in sharing? http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2012/12/10/harvard-mens-hockey-notebook-merrimack/

“Some guys had to take a year absent,” Girard said. “I won’t say any names, but like any other team, we might have some problems with the academic scandal. Some of them just want to take leaves to get more playing time and come back later because they were younger guys. Some other guys were just injured. But overall, they’re going to come back; they’re still part of our family and still part of our team.”

So injuries, playing time and Intro to Congress...
 
Re: Harvard Crimson 2012-2013

Mark Lazar gone as well per CHN Joe Meloni

Sigh...yeah. Unfortunately he's yet to suit up for the Crimson so...

He might be one of the injured players Girard was talking about. He missed all of last year with injuries.

Meanwhile, with the players we still have...well we laid an egg. 1-1-1 in non conference games with 4 remaining. Need a win over Northeastern and then a win against BU or in the Beanpot to guarantee a .500 non conference record.

It was a 3-0 game until late and the team had chances but should be checking their ankles for snake bites and it was non-conference...those were the positives. Everything else was bad.
 
Re: Harvard Crimson 2012-2013

Impartial observer here that saw last nights game. H had some chances and some juicy rebounds but no one home to capitalize. H seemed to be out of gas late in the 2nd and all of the 3rd. Despite their 2-0 first period lead, Lowell looked sluggish until the 2nd when they started skating/passing well, especially in transition. They skated right by H.
Re: snake bit... the puck that hit the post and slow motioned it's way across the net on the goal line. That puck goes in and it's a 2-1 game... could have changed everything.
Vesey and the 3rd line (O'Regans) seemed to have plenty of energy for 60 minutes.
 
Re: Harvard Crimson 2012-2013

Big fan of Harvard hockey but can you imagine if this was BU or BC or Maine??? The board would blow up. Seems like Harvard is getting a pass on this one.... Same thing with the goalie a few years ago. kids cheat, go play juniors for a year, work on their game and have fun and come back and play like nothing happened. Seems strange and have never heard of this cycle/model outside Harvard

Hard to fathom that the player would say this "I also didn’t want it to look like I messed up and everything."
 
Last edited:
Re: Harvard Crimson 2012-2013

Big fan of Harvard hockey but can you imagine if this was BU or BC or Maine??? The board would blow up. Seems like Harvard is getting a pass on this one.... Same thing with the goalie a few years ago. kids cheat, go play juniors for a year, work on their game and have fun and come back and play like nothing happened. Seems strange and have never heard of this cycle/model outside Harvard

Hard to fathom that the player would say this "I also didn’t want it to look like I messed up and everything."

I completely agree, but I'm not going to let some 20yr old quote get me all wrapped around the axle. We all know that young kids make mistakes. This is why when a kid re-negs on an LOI, I don't get crazy about it. Do I like it? Of course not. But these are 20yr old kids, not 40yr old adults, who are often not capable of making a fully-informed decision when they sign the LOI to begin with. I'd rather that they end up at a 4yr school because that's is where their heart & mind tells them to go...not because they signed an LOI 2 yrs prior!

Cheating is cheating no matter how you slice it. It goes above and beyond a lack of judgment because with cheating, you start to bring words like "character" and "integrity" into the conversation.

I have relentlessly ridiculed some programs (BU & North Dakota in particular) for their pedestaled hockey programs where hockey players continually are arrested or don't go to class with little to no ramification. These schools track record makes the NCAA and the moniker of "student-athlete" sound like nothing more than a slogan or a punchline.

It is a privilege to go to Harvard. There are more high school valedictorians that apply each year than spots available in the freshman class. And as such, the notion of parking a kid in juniors for 2-3 yrs (forget about cheating) does not sit well with me to begin with....to me, it directly conflicts with what Harvard stands for (even if it would make for a less competitive hockey program). Throw cheating on top of it, and it makes my blood boil.

Now someone is going to tell me that what Harvard is doing is consistent with Harvard practice. A non-athlete would suffer the same consequences (have to leave school for a year). If this is not true, someone correct me.

Here is what I think and hope happens. I hope that these players learn something....that is first and foremost. A glass half-full perspective is that these players never forget this and this helps shape them and the future decisions they have to make in life. I hope they also realize what an opportunity they have to play at a pretty darn good hockey program and leave with one of the most coveted & in-demand documents that exists in the entire world.

Now for the tough part, I also hope that they lose a year of eligibility. Meaning, all of these sophmores should not be considered sophmores next year. They should be considered juniors so that there is real teeth and sacrifice for showcasing such poor judgment. I get that they don't want to become stale and not play hockey for a year (hence, the USHL outlet), but I don't believe that they should get that year back. Similarly, I think all schools should support this such that if Harvard indeed invokes this stance, these players could not go to another school and retain that year of eligibility. All hockey schools would need to come together and uniformly state that they don't support this kind of conduct....Period!

What do others think?
 
Last edited:
Re: Harvard Crimson 2012-2013

Harvard is treating everyone alike and for the most part it was not straightforward cheating. You should read up on what happened with that particular course before judging. ~125 out of ~270 students taking the course were investigated.
 
Re: Harvard Crimson 2012-2013

Harvard is treating everyone alike and for the most part it was not straightforward cheating. You should read up on what happened with that particular course before judging. ~125 out of ~270 students taking the course were investigated.

I took that course several years ago and before I even read what course had the "cheating scandal" I knew it was that course.

Question for everyone here: if you are allowed to study together and create study guides together (true for all classes) is it cheating if during your open book take home final you work off that study guide?

I'm not saying that's the case for everyone. There were reported instances of the exact same writing occurring in some tests (I believe a few students each mis-wrote 25,000 as 250,00 or something along those lines) but the other problem was, according to the professor, that students misinterpreted the material in the same way. Well if I'm absent and get my notes for that class from someone else, and that person misinterpreted what the professor said, guess what's going to happen? Now if we then both make that mistake on our papers, is that cheating? Even if we didn't collaborate after the exam question went out? I know a lot of teams at Harvard tend to make team-wide study guides for classes.

Finally, I think one reason that there's no giant outrage about this is that Harvard got raked over the coals for it when the story first broke in August and members of the men's basketball team withdrew. Now it's kind of old news.

Personally, I think Harvard mishandled the entire case and should have worked as hard as possible to have it resolved by the beginning of the term. I also think the course structure was flawed. That doesn't excuse people wholesale, but in many of the instances I do think that the alleged collaboration happened for many before the exam (just as there was probably uncaught collaboration by other people after the exam was given out).

PS - For those who ask, no, I'm not defending myself retroactively. I'm too stubborn to ever admit I'd need "help" in the form of collaborating or cheating. Plus I usually did the work the day of right before leaving to go broadcast games so I didn't have time to seek other people out and ask their opinions.
 
Re: Harvard Crimson 2012-2013

I completely agree, but I'm not going to let some 20yr old quote get me all wrapped around the axle. We all know that young kids make mistakes. This is why when a kid re-negs on an LOI, I don't get crazy about it. Do I like it? Of course not. But these are 20yr old kids, not 40yr old adults, who are often not capable of making a fully-informed decision when they sign the LOI to begin with. I'd rather that they end up at a 4yr school because that's is where their heart & mind tells them to go...not because they signed an LOI 2 yrs prior!

Cheating is cheating no matter how you slice it. It goes above and beyond a lack of judgment because with cheating, you start to bring words like "character" and "integrity" into the conversation.

I have relentlessly ridiculed some programs (BU & North Dakota in particular) for their pedestaled hockey programs where hockey players continually are arrested or don't go to class with little to no ramification. These schools track record makes the NCAA and the moniker of "student-athlete" sound like nothing more than a slogan or a punchline.

It is a privilege to go to Harvard. There are more high school valedictorians that apply each year than spots available in the freshman class. And as such, the notion of parking a kid in juniors for 2-3 yrs (forget about cheating) does not sit well with me to begin with....to me, it directly conflicts with what Harvard stands for (even if it would make for a less competitive hockey program). Throw cheating on top of it, and it makes my blood boil.

Now someone is going to tell me that what Harvard is doing is consistent with Harvard practice. A non-athlete would suffer the same consequences (have to leave school for a year). If this is not true, someone correct me.

Here is what I think and hope happens. I hope that these players learn something....that is first and foremost. A glass half-full perspective is that these players never forget this and this helps shape them and the future decisions they have to make in life. I hope they also realize what an opportunity they have to play at a pretty darn good hockey program and leave with one of the most coveted & in-demand documents that exists in the entire world.

Now for the tough part, I also hope that they lose a year of eligibility. Meaning, all of these sophmores should not be considered sophmores next year. They should be considered juniors so that there is real teeth and sacrifice for showcasing such poor judgment. I get that they don't want to become stale and not play hockey for a year (hence, the USHL outlet), but I don't believe that they should get that year back. Similarly, I think all schools should support this such that if Harvard indeed invokes this stance, these players could not go to another school and retain that year of eligibility. All hockey schools would need to come together and uniformly state that they don't support this kind of conduct....Period!

What do others think?

..well thought out.
 
Re: Harvard Crimson 2012-2013

Bothman, I think you are right to rag on the BU and NoDaks of the world for having little academic accountability for their players, not to mention the general free reign they get for their off ice behavior.

Given that this is Harvard, the university had to hand out stiff punishments to retain its integrity. And in this case, the athletes and non athletes got it the same. In fact, the athletes might get it even worse if they have to lose a year of eligibility.

I can certainly understand Michalek's reluctance to tell the world that he was part of the scandal. Of course he didn't want anybody to know, he was ashamed of it. He recognizes it is a sign of poor judgement and that it is not a mark of high character. And it isn't as if he didn't tell anybody. Just not the general public. He (and the others involved) had to tell their coaches, their teammates and their friends. Not to mention their parents. Explaining to all those people why they have to leave for a year is certainly a difficult thing to go through, and I'm sure it has really made them think about their actions, their consequences and how it reflects on themselves.

As far as how the course was structured, I can't speak from experience unfortunately, but it certainly seems that the course may have contributed to what happened, though to me, most of the blame should go squarely on the students shoulders. Yes, there are degrees of cheating, but at some point, integrity matters, and if some people have to miss a year to send that message, then so be it. I would hope, however, that they retain their full 4 years of hockey, as I think not doing so unfairly punishes athletes over normal students.

Finally, I have heard from multiple sources that the investigation has not been a model of efficiency and clarity, and that a lot of these sticky matters may have been avoided if they had been able to inform students before the year began.
 
Re: Harvard Crimson 2012-2013

Some responsibility has to come back to the head coach doesn't it? Its his program and they're his recruits. When offering a young man the privilege of playing for an institution like Harvard you'd best make character a litmus test issue. If you look hard enough and under a few rocks you will get a pretty good idea of the character of the individuals you are inviting to wear your schools uniform. No program is perfect and someone can always slip between the cracks but that isn't the case here where 5 team members are implicated.
 
Some responsibility has to come back to the head coach doesn't it? Its his program and they're his recruits. When offering a young man the privilege of playing for an institution like Harvard you'd best make character a litmus test issue. If you look hard enough and under a few rocks you will get a pretty good idea of the character of the individuals you are inviting to wear your schools uniform. No program is perfect and someone can always slip between the cracks but that isn't the case here where 5 team members are implicated.



127 kids were involved. Sounds like an institution and not a hc issue
 
Re: Harvard Crimson 2012-2013

I have been following the Government 1310 thing from the beginning and it certainly involves far more than just athletes. Blaming the coaches seems way off the mark.

My understanding is that the instructor was fairly new to Harvard and gave an exam as a take home and open book, internet sources OK, joint study guides OK, just no collaboration on the exam. The instructor should have some of the blame for the situation as that is a bit loosey-goosey to me.

Another problem is that FAS was aware of this sometime in May and apparently sat on this over the summer due to the availability of people needed to deal with in (instructor, Ad Board etc) I understand that some students, told their exam was the object of investigation, took leaves of absence before the investigation was completed as they did not want to be at Harvard past the deadline for tuition refunds.

There is quite a bit in the Harvard Crimson on this including:
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2012/9/1/ad-board-accused-students/

As Alslammer said above, it would e hard to tell if the allegedly plagiarized bits came after the exam was distributed or the notes and study guides prepared before the exam was distributed.
 
Re: Harvard Crimson 2012-2013

127 kids were involved. Sounds like an institution and not a hc issue
As long as the hockey players got the same treatment as everyone else, then I don't see any problem. Union has had a couple players put on academic suspension for a trimester or two, just like any other students on campus, and its the price you pay and then you go on. The bigger issue would be if there was any complicity in this from either the hockey program or athletic department that would get the NCAA nosing around, which sounds like it won't be issue since most of the students involved were non-athletes. A very tough break for the hockey program and obviously the worry is that some of the players may not return.

..and at least the players didn't go to a semi-pro league in Europe like happened at another "high profile" school ;).
 
Back
Top