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Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

So, as long as we are talking about conference realignment, how about Adrian to the East?
 
Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

Tucker6 said:
So NUProf, your telling me that all these D1 transfers, and the 16 kids on their roster from Canada and Europe just happen to come to SNC and get no more financial aid than if they went to UW Whatever, really?
Click to expand...

They may get more financial aid but it still is going to cost at least as much to UW - Whereever. Unless, of course that all students at St. Whoever get mammoth packages, the financial aid packages offered to hockey players must be indistinguishable from those offered to other students. Have you read about the issues at Neumann and Morrisville?

The total amount of money may be greater, but the cost of attendance will certainly also be greater. If you look at the amount of aid instead of the cost of attendance you are going to miss the point. If I get a $15,000 package to go to a $40,000 school, you may look at the $15,000 and say wow, but as a a parent, I look at the remaining 25,000 and say, I'm sending you to Wisconsin Wherver, where you got a 0$ package because I'm spending less money. Total expenditure on financial aid is not a valid comparison of two schools with very different cost bases.
 
Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

The question is, "What does the WIAC 5 really want"?

If their problem is the with private institutions then expanding is a 'dead issue', because all 8 members in the MCHA are Private Institutions and PIs don't like to be under the control, or dictated to by Public Institutions when it comes to money or operating procedures.
If competition is the issue then the only teams in the MCHA that could offer a reasonable level of competition with them on a yearly basis are Adrian and MSOE. Marian and Lawrence may be close, but would be hard pressed to do it continuosly.
If travel expenses are the problem then Adrian, Finlandia, and Lake Forest are out of the picture.

Word is that SSC is looking to join the MIAC in all sports, which makes sense. They are a Minnesota school, correct me if I'm wrong. SSC could also package itself with SNC and make the MCHA a 10 team league. SNC is on the wrong side of Wisconsin to make the MIAC a solution. So, SNC should either make application to join the MCHA, or be ready to make concessions to the WIAC that will probably hinder their efforts at gaining future National Championships.

Bottomline is: we really do not know what the WIAC wants so this can go in a myriad of directions.
 
Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

GB Puck Fan said:
NUProf knows the rules better than I do, but I believe part of the rules is that as long as the athletes receive aid in the same proportion as the general student body, it is acceptable. That's part of what got those eastern schools in trouble - more athletes were getting the aid.

So, if SNC has a scholarship program for international students, a Canadian hockey player & education major could be eligible for it the same as a Bulgarian chemistry major or Peruvian business major. SNC has more than 130 international students from 37 countries of its 2,217 enrollment. (http://www.snc.edu/futurestudents/international/numbers.html) It's not as if all of the international students are hockey players, etc.

Yes, they may get more aid than they would at UW-Whatever, but that's because the costs are higher. And if SNC can make the cost lower than going to a state school, that's its choice. The key is - correct me NUProf - for the hockey players not to get aid disproportionately from the rest of the student body.
Click to expand...

Correct. That is the reason for the tempest surrounding Neumann, Potsdam, and some other schools in the last couple of years. They had a very favorable package available to all Canadian students that was only accepted (with minimal exceptions) by hockey players. Even if that wasn't the intent, the disproportionality involved caused them to get sanctioned, and they would have been banned from post season play if their rosters had any players who accepted the packages.
 
Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

NUProf said:
They may get more financial aid but it still is going to cost at least as much to UW - Whereever. Unless, of course that all students at St. Whoever get mammoth packages, the financial aid packages offered to hockey players must be indistinguishable from those offered to other students. Have you read about the issues at Neumann and Morrisville?

The total amount of money may be greater, but the cost of attendance will certainly also be greater. If you look at the amount of aid instead of the cost of attendance you are going to miss the point. If I get a $15,000 package to go to a $40,000 school, you may look at the $15,000 and say wow, but as a a parent, I look at the remaining 25,000 and say, I'm sending you to Wisconsin Wherver, where you got a 0$ package because I'm spending less money. Total expenditure on financial aid is not a valid comparison of two schools with very different cost bases.
Click to expand...

And when St.Whatever gives out $18,000 in FA Grants because they can over their $30,000 tuition, but State Whomever doesn't give any FA Grants because they can't afford to for their $15,000 tuition St.Whatever wins. Private schools have the ability to expand their FA Grant type options unlike the State schools. There is much more wiggle room. You make it sound like you are going to get the same amount of FA type packages from school to school no matter how much tuition is, and I know Im speaking of deaf ears because you never want to acknowledge it happens, but its not how it works. Every school can come up with their own FA package, State schools however have a much stricter policy then a private school. And as long as it is given to all members equally (a-la Neumann, Morrisville, Potsdam ect) its all legal. If a private school wants to give out $18,000 in foreign FA they can if they want to, as long as it goes for everyone and its not just athletes at the school. State schools, because tuition is already lower, still has to make money so they can not AFFORD to fork out HUGE deals. Yes the majority of the time private schools just bring their cost down to state school cost, but to think that some private schools can't or don't drop below state school cost?? Please...even if its close, many times players would rather go to a private school then some "state" school...Private schools normally have a much bigger alumni fund, private funding for athletics, and the possibility for a bigger budget. State schools must follow contracts and rely on a lot of State funding.
 
Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

PSUChamps2001 said:
And when St.Whatever gives out $18,000 in FA Grants because they can over their $30,000 tuition, but State Whomever doesn't give any FA Grants because they can't afford to for their $15,000 tuition St.Whatever wins. Private schools have the ability to expand their FA Grant type options unlike the State schools. There is much more wiggle room. You make it sound like you are going to get the same amount of FA type packages from school to school no matter how much tuition is, and I know Im speaking of deaf ears because you never want to acknowledge it happens, but its not how it works. Every school can come up with their own FA package, State schools however have a much stricter policy then a private school. And as long as it is given to all members equally (a-la Neumann, Morrisville, Potsdam ect) its all legal. If a private school wants to give out $18,000 in foreign FA they can if they want to, as long as it goes for everyone and its not just athletes at the school. State schools, because tuition is already lower, still has to make money so they can not AFFORD to fork out HUGE deals. Yes the majority of the time private schools just bring their cost down to state school cost, but to think that some private schools can't or don't drop below state school cost?? Please...even if its close, many times players would rather go to a private school then some "state" school...Private schools normally have a much bigger alumni fund, private funding for athletics, and the possibility for a bigger budget. State schools must follow contracts and rely on a lot of State funding.
Click to expand...

Remember two important things

1. Packages have to be comparable between athletes than non-atheletes.
2. A $25,000 package to attend a S40,000 certainly looks like a better deal than a $5,000 package to attend a $20,000 school. That is human nature, but the reality is that assuming equal academic quality, they are equivalent. It's psychological and emotional, not really fact based.
 
Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

"It looks like the umbrella just might become the WIAC with five state school and two privates, if applications go that way. Structurally it is the most competitive league in the country right now, and we would like to maintain that level of integrity and that level of play. We'll have to see if that shakes out," St. Norbert hockey coach Tim Coghlin said.
 
Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

NorthernLite said:
Isn't it a little presumtuous to assume that SNC will have welcome mat(s) extended to them by either the WIAC or MCHA ?
Click to expand...

Maybe SNC will fold and Adrian will be awarded the 2011 national championship after all? You guys could even get a ring made up for Krug...

Also, again, SNC isn't looking for the easiest road to an aq. They want to play the best competition possible to prepare them to compete on the national scale. So yeah, they probably will be seeking associate membership of the WIAC rather than approaching the MCHA.
 
Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

NUProf said:
Remember two important things

1. Packages have to be comparable between athletes than non-atheletes.
2. A $25,000 package to attend a S40,000 certainly looks like a better deal than a $5,000 package to attend a $20,000 school. That is human nature, but the reality is that assuming equal academic quality, they are equivalent. It's psychological and emotional, not really fact based.
Click to expand...
Depends on how much are loans and how much are grants. Less loans are preferred.

State schools could always do a diversity grant where any non Wisconsinite gets free room and board assuming they have a GPA / SAT / ACT that meets a given criteria.
 
Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

Well this certainly got interesting, didn't it?

Not sure how I feel about one or both to the MCHA. The NCHA has not exactly done any favors in scheduling for the MCHA over the past decade. I would be more than willing to say its the reason for the 20-game league schedule. Which sucks.
 
Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

So wait, if all of the Wisconsin schools are leaving, yet they are inviting St. Norbert to go with them into the new conference? Doesn't that just leave St. Scholastica left? Really, all of this just to screw over 1 school?
 
Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

My money is on same old conference, new name.
 
Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

After reading through this I have to ask this question.....but first let me start by saying I don't believe their is any favoring of athletes done either SNC or CSS or really any school that has an administration with a conscience. But the references to this point have been to athlete aid vs. non-athlete aid. If this is even possible, does athlete to non-athlete look at % of dollars for students as a whole vs. athletes as a whole. For instance using small round numbers lets say a school has 1,000 students of which 100 are athletes. If there is $1,000 dollars in aid given out per year and $900 goes to strictly students and $100 to athletes does the NCAA take note of which athletic programs get more aid, say if men's hockey receives $40 and the other 18 sports get the remaining $60?

Just a question I have to ask being it popped into my head.

I would also say to the notes about SNC having foreign players & D1 players, every team in the NCHA has at sometime had foreign players & D1 players or currently does. Some players don't make it through the clearing house, some transfer in from D1, i.e. Brossman and Cardwell from A-Fairbanks. And as far as foreign players, other teams have them too, RF currently has Yuel MH & Kuechle WH. Yes SNC might have more but sometimes all it takes is an in, in a particular community, i.e. you get one guy from Sodertajle, Sweden who has a great time at RF and friends and family from that community grow interested in RF. When I first got here RF had more Canadians and a couple of European players as well. I really don't think there is any more $ going to foreign students its just that they know successes of friends and acquaintances who have gone to SNC or any other school and that makes the new player want to go there.
 
Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

FALCONSANNOUNCER said:
After reading through this I have to ask this question.....but first let me start by saying I don't believe their is any favoring of athletes done either SNC or CSS or really any school that has an administration with a conscience. But the references to this point have been to athlete aid vs. non-athlete aid. If this is even possible, does athlete to non-athlete look at % of dollars for students as a whole vs. athletes as a whole. For instance using small round numbers lets say a school has 1,000 students of which 100 are athletes. If there is $1,000 dollars in aid given out per year and $900 goes to strictly students and $100 to athletes does the NCAA take note of which athletic programs get more aid, say if men's hockey receives $40 and the other 18 sports get the remaining $60?

Just a question I have to ask being it popped into my head.
Click to expand...

The NCAA doesn't care how the money is spent between athletes. That's up to the schools to decide what sport they want to favor, if any.

What the NCAA cares about in Division III is how the money is spent between athletes and non-athletes.
 
Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

VermontfaninNY said:
So wait, if all of the Wisconsin schools are leaving, yet they are inviting St. Norbert to go with them into the new conference? Doesn't that just leave St. Scholastica left? Really, all of this just to screw over 1 school?
Click to expand...

It has nothing to do with screwing over a school. It has to do with wanting to pull the sport in under the WIAC umbrella.

Besides, if SNC joins the WIAC and CSS does not, then the WIAC is still without an AQ. That's why the decision on where to go is not so simple for SNC.

What's really interesting about this move is on the women's side. The NCHA can still keep a seven-team league and the AQ, while the WIAC will consist of only four schools -- a totally useless league.
 
Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

Russell Jaslow said:
The NCAA doesn't care how the money is spent between athletes. That's up to the schools to decide what sport they want to favor, if any.

What the NCAA cares about in Division III is how the money is spent between athletes and non-athletes.
Click to expand...

Not exactly true. Individual sports are tracked for being an outlier. If any one sport is an outlier for three consecutive years it will trigger a review.
 
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