Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

[bigmrg74]

Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

It now takes 10 or so years to move from Division III to a full fledged Division I member. You have to spend a whole bunch of years at Division II before you go to Division I.

BUT, since there is no Division II men's ice hockey championship, they don't have to go all the way to Division I, they can move the whole athletic program to Division II and then play in the new WCHA which, outside of Bowling Green, a D-II members league anyway, and play in the Men's Division I championship.

And if that happens, you betcha Resch lets them in.

They would have to move the rest of their athletic department up to D2 to get that done I believe. And then they're to put those sports in with either the NSIC, the GLIAC, or even the GLVC. travel wise with them being in Green Bay, its not going to be ideal either way. the NSIC is mostly Minnesota and Dakota schools, putting them on the wrong side of Wisconsin, but that would be attractive to them being that they would get to face the D1 hockey schools of UMD, St. Cloud, Bemidji, and Mankato. With the GLIAC, their problem would be Lake Michigan in between them and most of the league, but they would get to face Michigan Tech, Northern Michigan, Lake Superior without the total barrier to bus travel that is the lake. And Hammer's Alma Mater of Ferris would be fairly close as long as they work out something where they can take one of the Lake Ferries across on a regular basis, along with mine GVSU. The rest of the time, they're going to have to go thru Chicago to reach points ranging from Saginaw, Michigan to Cleveland, Ohio to Columbus, Ohio. After that, they're next best option would be the GLVC. Travel wise they're not much better, as that's mostly Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, and Missouri. There is Wisconsin Parkside in that league, but they would be looking at a lot of regular trips to St. Louis, Louisville, and Kansas City areas.

It would be a pretty tough road to go for them to go D2 as Wisconsin-Madison really doesn't like the idea of other schools within the state of Wisconsin being able to offer any sort of a scholorship to play football. SNC would really need to have something ironclad worked out with the reformed WCHA to be able to join it, and work out a deal to skate a lot of its big games at the Resch center to afford to go D2 I think. It has been kicked around a bit that Green Bay and the Resch Center would be a pretty good central location to have the WCHA Final Five at, but they would have the problem of no local schools around it. SNC would solve that problem for them.

 

[Tucker6]

Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

I don't know enough about the NCHA rules to know if they could do that or not. I was just throwing that out there because the reasons of travel, and budget cuts sound like bull to me. It sounds more like taking their puck and going to another conference to get away from the people they can't financially compete with.

 

[GB Puck Fan]

Isn't it a little presumtuous to assume that SNC will have welcome mat(s) extended to them by either the WIAC or MCHA ?

Yes, I suppose it is. That's why I called it a guess.

Not sure why the MCHA would reject a two-time national champion as a way to raise its profile. And one that has other Midwest Conference schools in it.

Not sure why the WIAC wouldn't want a (relatively) close school - that they already have a relationship with - to help get them to the autobid.

I think this really is the state schools trying to streamline operations - and reducing travel on the womens side. Its not a "we hate CSS and SNC" move.

 

[MountieBoyOz]

Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

Ball is in SNC's court. They have the WIAC by the throat and can torpedo the conference if they go to the MCHA. Plus, do the Knight want to keep their rivalries with the WIAC schools?

 

[GB Puck Fan]

Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

Ball is in SNC's court. They have the WIAC by the throat and can torpedo the conference if they go to the MCHA. Plus, do the Knight want to keep their rivalries with the WIAC schools?

Seeing what the WIAC commissioner said, I'm not sure that's true. The state schools aren't getting the autobid now. You can't lose what you really don't have...

 

[NUProf]

Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

My guess would be any private school wanting to join as a affiliate member would have to follow strict financial aid package guidelines in an effort to level the recruiting playing field that is probably the cause of this mess to begin with.

This is a total misread of the situation as far as financial aid is concerned. If it costs less to attend SNC and STS for athletes, it costs less for everybody, and that is not the case. Private schools appear to give more aid, but their baseline costs are much higher. It's not a financial aid problem it's a perception problem. If it costs 20K to go to UW-Wherever and 40K to go to St. Whatever, then to catch up St. Whatever has to give 20K more in aid to make the cost of attendance level. In DIII, that can't be preferential aid to athletes either.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

Seeing what the WIAC commissioner said, I'm not sure that's true. The state schools aren't getting the autobid now. You can't lose what you really don't have...

They do have it to play for - ask the ECAC West what it's like right now.

 

[GB Puck Fan]

Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

They do have it to play for - ask the ECAC West what it's like right now.

Agreed and true... but in practical terms (and this is his job) he was downplaying that as a negative aspect by noting there's no guarantee a state school would get an auto bid. Ideally, the WIAC finds two more state schools to add hockey but given budgets - unless there's a couple of Penn State style donors out there - that's not happening.

 

[Tucker6]

Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

So NUProf, your telling me that all these D1 transfers, and the 16 kids on their roster from Canada and Europe just happen to come to SNC and get no more financial aid than if they went to UW Whatever, really?

 

[GB Puck Fan]

Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

Updated story from Fox 11 in Green Bay:
http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/sports/college/wiac-schools-confirm-leaving-ncha

- WIAC affiliation is an option
- replacing the state schools with other members in the NCHA is an option
- the MCHA is an option
- moving to D1 or D2 is not an option

 

[GB Puck Fan]

Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

So NUProf, your telling me that all these D1 transfers, and the 16 kids on their roster from Canada and Europe just happen to come to SNC and get no more financial aid than if they went to UW Whatever, really?

NUProf knows the rules better than I do, but I believe part of the rules is that as long as the athletes receive aid in the same proportion as the general student body, it is acceptable. That's part of what got those eastern schools in trouble - more athletes were getting the aid.

So, if SNC has a scholarship program for international students, a Canadian hockey player & education major could be eligible for it the same as a Bulgarian chemistry major or Peruvian business major. SNC has more than 130 international students from 37 countries of its 2,217 enrollment. (http://www.snc.edu/futurestudents/international/numbers.html) It's not as if all of the international students are hockey players, etc.

Yes, they may get more aid than they would at UW-Whatever, but that's because the costs are higher. And if SNC can make the cost lower than going to a state school, that's its choice. The key is - correct me NUProf - for the hockey players not to get aid disproportionately from the rest of the student body.

 

[NorthernLite]

Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

Not sure why the MCHA would reject a two-time national champion as a way to raise its profile. And one that has other Midwest Conference schools in it.

A noble gesture and flattering that a 2X national champion would take a step down in competition(overall) to improve the profile of this conference ........and in return SNC get a softer schedule with perennial AQ potential. Who comes out the bigger winner here..SNC....or the MCHA ?

Not sure why the WIAC wouldn't want a (relatively) close school - that they already have a relationship with - to help get them to the autobid.

I'm not convinced the relationship is/was that strong ? Otherwise why the surprise announcement of this divorce ?

Once again it would be a noble gesture on the part of SNC to help get the WIAC a step closer to the autobid.

I think this really is the state schools trying to streamline operations - and reducing travel on the womens side. Its not a "we hate CSS and SNC" move

SNC are a very successful program and they will take the path of least resistance to AQ and National Championship possibilites..........with little or no consideration for anyone's benefit but their own. However if the WIAC and MCHA don't share your opinion of their value.....they may just find themselves fighting it out for an at large bid.

 

[Bruce Ciskie]

Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

Shameless self promotion, but I did do a little digging on this. Not sure anything here is ground-breaking, but figured I'd toss it out there.

http://ciskie.blogspot.com/2012/02/wiac-schools-leaving-ncha.html

 

[GB Puck Fan]

Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

Sure it will be a business decision for SNC. But I don't think SNC will end up homeless a la Huntsville.

SNC routinely plays the WIAC schools and many of the MCHA schools, so I think they will be able to work something out.

While the timing of todays announcement may have been a surprise, its no secret the WIAC has been working on cost cutting moves - ie playing conference teams as noncon games in football - and that this option has been floated before.

And while I may have a high opinion of the program - which is ok for an alum, I think - you are right that its what the other schools think is best. That's why I have been saying I don't think SNC and CSS have the WIAC by the throat, as others have put it. It is SNC's job to find a suitable home, either in the WIAC or a rebuilt NCHA or in the MCHA.

 

[MW49]

Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

A noble gesture and flattering that a 2X national champion would take a step down in competition(overall) to improve the profile of this conference ........and in return SNC get a softer schedule with perennial AQ potential. Who comes out the bigger winner here..SNC....or the MCHA ?

LMAO with you on this one Northern Lite. I'm sure the seven teams in the MCHA, that haven't had a sniff of the NCAAs in decades (due to no AQ, poor profiles, and Adrian's dominance for 4.. going on 5 years), are rolling out the 'Red Carpet' and dancing like its Fat Tuesday all because SNC is thinking of joining the MCHA.

 

[bigmrg74]

Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

They would have to move the rest of their athletic department up to D2 to get that done I believe. And then they're to put those sports in with either the NSIC, the GLIAC, or even the GLVC. travel wise with them being in Green Bay, its not going to be ideal either way. the NSIC is mostly Minnesota and Dakota schools, putting them on the wrong side of Wisconsin, but that would be attractive to them being that they would get to face the D1 hockey schools of UMD, St. Cloud, Bemidji, and Mankato. With the GLIAC, their problem would be Lake Michigan in between them and most of the league, but they would get to face Michigan Tech, Northern Michigan, Lake Superior without the total barrier to bus travel that is the lake. And Hammer's Alma Mater of Ferris would be fairly close as long as they work out something where they can take one of the Lake Ferries across on a regular basis, along with mine GVSU. The rest of the time, they're going to have to go thru Chicago to reach points ranging from Saginaw, Michigan to Cleveland, Ohio to Columbus, Ohio. After that, they're next best option would be the GLVC. Travel wise they're not much better, as that's mostly Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, and Missouri. There is Wisconsin Parkside in that league, but they would be looking at a lot of regular trips to St. Louis, Louisville, and Kansas City areas.

It would be a pretty tough road to go for them to go D2 as Wisconsin-Madison really doesn't like the idea of other schools within the state of Wisconsin being able to offer any sort of a scholorship to play football. SNC would really need to have something ironclad worked out with the reformed WCHA to be able to join it, and work out a deal to skate a lot of its big games at the Resch center to afford to go D2 I think. It has been kicked around a bit that Green Bay and the Resch Center would be a pretty good central location to have the WCHA Final Five at, but they would have the problem of no local schools around it. SNC would solve that problem for them.

Its not to say that SNC could go the "move the Athletic Department up to D2 so that the Hockey team could be a D1 program. Just saying that option wouldn't exactly be a cheap and easy fix. If the travel was about the same, it would probably be about the same overall cost to run the athletic department as a D2 program as what you would need to give out in financial aid would be roughly about the same as what it would be to give those kids partial scholarships to get them to come to SNC. Right now, the big problem I see for SNC is the overall increase in costs they would have for sports like football, basketball, and volleyball to ship them to and fro. Their current D3 conference, the Midwest Conference, has them with a lot of other Wisconsin schools, a few Illinois schools and one trip to Iowa. I haven't crunched the numbers, but off the top of my head I would say they're adding a hundred miles easy to their average bus trip. That's a pretty big cost that they would be adding to, especially given how much gas has gone up in the past decade and shows little signs of coming back down.

 

[elbojpb]

Payback Time??

Payback Time??

Not sure why the MCHA would reject a two-time national champion as a way to raise its profile. And one that has other Midwest Conference schools in it.

Unless one of its member schools has some clout, and a good memory, and recalls the fact that some of the NCHA members absolutely refused to schedule Adrian prior to the MCHA AQ.

 

[NorthernPike]

Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

This is a total misread of the situation as far as financial aid is concerned. If it costs less to attend SNC and STS for athletes, it costs less for everybody, and that is not the case. Private schools appear to give more aid, but their baseline costs are much higher. It's not a financial aid problem it's a perception problem. If it costs 20K to go to UW-Wherever and 40K to go to St. Whatever, then to catch up St. Whatever has to give 20K more in aid to make the cost of attendance level. In DIII, that can't be preferential aid to athletes either.

Thank You. It is refreshing to have someone who understands the financing behind higher education.

 

[GB Puck Fan]

Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

Wow, apparently that comment came way differently than I meant it. But there are a few ways to look at it:

* Look at SNC's record against the MCHA teams (54-0-1 coming into the season). SNC has been a better program. Sorry if others don't like it, but that's a fact. 30-0 vs. Lawrence didn't happen overnight.

* Given SNC's history of strength of schedule, non-conference performance, etc, adding SNC to the MCHA may help those teams in terms of an at-large bid. Does that mean I think they should be 'grateful' to SNC? No.

* If SNC thought it could just steamroll the MCHA to get an AQ bid (a proposition I don't agree with, BTW) it could have made that move a long time ago. It has more 'allegiance' (if that's the right word) to Lake Forest and Lawrence than the WIAC schools. SNC wants to be in the NCHA because of the teams, the competition and the rivalries it built up.

* From a purely financial POV, the MCHA likely made more sense a long time ago, because SNC could have traded 1 team within a 2-hour drive (UWSP) for 4 (LU, Marian, Concordia and MSOE). It may make sense now. Not for me to decide.

Do I think the MCHA is "dancing" at the prospect of getting SNC? No. But, I think the conference would take them. That's all - and I do think it would add to the conference's reputation.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Good Bye NCHA, Hello WIAC. Grab a life vest SNC and CSS!

You do remember that Morrisville used to be an all sports member of SUNYAC, right? Same with SUNYIT. And they both left because they weren't competitive in any of their sports. (In fact, SUNYIT men's basketball was terrible in the SUNYAC, yet the very first year they were in NEAC, they got the NCAA AQ -- how's that for conference competitive inbalance; and we complain over a much lesser degree of that in hockey.) Morrisville applied for SUNYAC affiliated membership for both their men's hockey and field hockey teams. The SUNYAC hockey coaches were more than willing to make it work to help save the Morrisville hockey program. The other field hockey schools desperately wanted to keep Morrisville to save their AQ because it gave them seven teams. Ergo, the first ever SUNYAC affiliated member attempt was approved.

All the former 2-year schools that became 4-year schools (Cobleskill, Morrisville, Canton) wound up joining the NEAC either initially or eventually. I don't see any of them changing back again. Also, note a bunch of the small Penn State campuses belong to this conference. It's perfectly suited for these type of schools.

You are right in that if Canton joins SUNYAC in all sports, their hockey team has to play in the SUNYAC. Otherwise, if the school joins say the NEAC, their hockey team has options (most likely SUNYAC or ECAC West).

Another factor folks need to remember is we're looking at this from a hockey perspective. Yes, there are nine hockey teams in SUNYAC. However, in most sports, there are 10 teams. Not every sport is going to want to add a team to give themselves an odd 11 number just to provide hockey with an even 10.

I agree that the NEAC is well suited for these schools (former SUNY Agricultural & Technical Schools) until they complete there "morphing" into schools like Plattsburgh, Oswego, etc (SUNY Arts and Science Schools). I do believe it is the long-term plan to complete the metamorphosis but there doesn’t appear to be a desire for this to occur overnight. Also, as I noted Canton will at a minimum have SUNYAC Affiliation as a potential option, but first THEY have to WANT it, and second they have to get accepted – neither option do I think is likely.