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Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

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Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Bob Gray said:
I'm not sure what you're talking about when you reference The Christian Identity movement.
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That explains why you misread my post. CI is an umbrella term for radical right groups that organize around crazy misreadings of Christian doctrine (exactly analogous to groups like AQ and IS). The guys who send abortion clinics Postcards from Jesus are typically CI. Often they are white power, but they do it in a 6-degrees-of-Kevin-Bacon way: they're not superior because they're white, they're superior because God chose them and the sign that God chose them is... you guessed it. But in any case their organizing principle is Christ.

It would be both dumb and ineffective to call these groups out for being "Christian," even though they self-ID as Christian in no uncertain terms. Nor would it make sense to call on every sane Christian to explicitly repudiate these groups -- you for example don't even appear to know they exist. But by the logic the herpa-derps and their mouthpieces apply to Islam, that would somehow make you an accessory to their actions, and maybe even tacitly a fellow traveler. Rather, we should deal with the group as CRAZY, because that's what's deadly about them.

Is that more clear?
 
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Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Kepler said:
That explains why you misread my post. CI is an umbrella term for radical right groups that organize around crazy misreadings of Christian doctrine (exactly analogous to groups like AQ and IS). The guys who send abortion clinics Postcards from Jesus are typically CI. Often they are white power, but they do it in a 6-degrees-of-Kevin-Bacon way: they're not superior because they're white, they're superior because God chose them and the sign that God chose them is... you guessed it. But in any case their organizing principle is Christ.

It would be both dumb and ineffective to call these groups out for being "Christian," even though they self-ID as Christian in no uncertain terms. Nor would it make sense to call on every sane Christian to explicitly repudiate these groups -- you for example don't even appear to know they exist. But by the logic the herpa-derps and their mouthpieces apply to Islam, that would somehow make you an accessory to their actions, and maybe even tacitly a fellow traveler. Rather, we should deal with the group as CRAZY, because that's what's deadly about them.

Is that more clear?
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Yes. I am aware of some groups out there that are supremacist and claim some connection to Christianity, but hadn't heard this particular term. But it sounds like it applies to a tiny fringe, not multiple groups that have large followings like the Muslim groups I mention, so the comparison still falls apart. If Christian Identity groups had large influence or controlled governments across western civilization (as cited Muslim groups do in the Muslim world), then the comparison would at least have some legs. At what point does a given group within a larger group (such as ISIS within Islam or Christian Identity within Christianity) reasonably start to have an influence on how the larger group is viewed? You say both cases should be viewed the same, even given the drastically different circumstances I note. I say the drastically different circumstances influence how much those groups influence how the larger group may be viewed.
 
Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

I'm saying they should be viewed as the same qualitatively.

I don't advocate treating them the same; I'm not in favor of drone striking Coeur d'Alene. I'm with Bill Maher that it's ridiculous to pretend that the vast majority of terrorist acts in today's world are not from Muslim groups. But going from that to "Islam is a religion of violence" would be like concluding from the 16th century that "Christianity is a religion of violence." What history has shown us is that when religion is an all-consuming ideology it can be an effective carrier wave for other kinds of crazy, given the right circumstances. The problem that faces us today is Islam is all-consuming in many places, and the circumstances exist in many of those places.

We should be trying to figure how to prevent people from becoming fundamentalist -- religiosity : fundamentalism :: alcohol consumption : alcoholism -- or at the very least what the circumstances are (economic? political?) that cause fundamentalists to become violent.
 
Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Kepler said:
I'm saying they should be viewed as the same qualitatively.

I don't advocate treating them the same; I'm not in favor of drone striking Coeur d'Alene. I'm with Bill Maher that it's ridiculous to pretend that the vast majority of terrorist acts in today's world are not from Muslim groups. But going from that to "Islam is a religion of violence" would be like concluding from the 16th century that "Christianity is a religion of violence." What history has shown us is that when religion is an all-consuming ideology it can be an effective carrier wave for other kinds of crazy, given the right circumstances. The problem that faces us today is Islam is all-consuming in many places, and the circumstances exist in many of those places.

We should be trying to figure how to prevent people from becoming fundamentalist -- religiosity : fundamentalism :: alcohol consumption : alcoholism -- or at the very least what the circumstances are (economic? political?) that cause fundamentalists to become violent.
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I've never trotted out a Islam is a religion of violence statement. Such broad sweeps are rarely accurate or useful, so let's put that bugaboo to bed. To repeat again, there certainly are many Muslim folks who generally speaking want nothing more than to go to work, provide for their family, and live in peace (though even a lot of these folks have crazy views on Israel, 9/11, etc. if polls over the years are at all accurate). But, such folks are not generally influential or in power in the Muslim world, so the face of Islam that usually shows forth in international affairs is violent to varying extents in a variety of ways, toward non-believing infidels, Christians, other branches of Islam (Sunni vs. Shiite, etc.), women, children, gays, etc.

Having beliefs that are all-consuming isn't necessarily a road to any sort of problems for society. Jesus was pretty all-consuming in doing his Father's will. Monks living in caves were pretty consumed by their beliefs and haven't generally messed society up. And a lot of folks quietly practice their beliefs in ways where their beliefs inform and direct their lives and they provide great benefits to society. Look at Kayla Mueller who was recently killed while in ISIS hands.
 
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Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Bob Gray said:
But, such folks are not generally influential or in power in the Muslim world
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I think some in power are quite rational and are just using Wahhabism or other radical ideologies to deflect criticism towards an "other." Israel was Allah's gift to totalitarian Arab regimes, for instance.

I disagree with you that having an all-consuming belief system is not inherently dangerous. If a person has only one* yardstick that he uses to measure everything, whether it's religion, Marxism, the free market, or furry videos, he's going to be making a lot of really bad judgments and poor decisions.

* Cornell hockey is of course an exception
 
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Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

The average Muslim on a worldwide scale is a 5'6" Eastern Asian guy, most likely from Indonesia.

It's not the 10 foot tall Arab terrorist who is haunting your nightmares like the boogeyman.

Just sayin'.
 
Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Kepler said:
I think some in power are quite rational and are just using Wahhabism or other radical ideologies to deflect criticism towards an "other." Israel was Allah's gift to totalitarian Arab regimes, for instance.

I disagree with you that having an all-consuming belief system is not inherently dangerous. If a person has only one* yardstick that he uses to measure everything, whether it's religion, Marxism, the free market, or furry videos, he's going to be making a lot of really bad judgments and poor decisions.

* Cornell hockey is of course an exception
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All depends on the yardstick you're using. If it's the best yardstick around, diversifying to other lesser yardsticks will inherently make your measurement less accurate.

Certainly there are savvy players in the Muslim world who work things to their advantage, but doing so can contribute to expressions of Islam that don't cast it in a very favorable light.
 
Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Bob Gray said:
All depends on the yardstick you're using. If it's the best yardstick around, diversifying to other lesser yardsticks will inherently make your measurement less accurate.
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Therein is the difference. I do not believe there is any One True Yardstick. :)
 
solovsfett said:
sure I won't let the internet forum door hit me douchnozzle
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So you're taking a cue from the Bob Gray school of argument whereby you claim you're leaving and then don't? Good to know. Since you combine that with the craziness of flaggy, you've got entertainment written all over your posts.

Surely you aren't seriously saying ISIS will have a d-day like foothold in western Europe by this time in 2017. You're not actually saying that's a real possibility, are you?
 
Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Bob Gray said:
Certainly there are savvy players in the Muslim world who work things to their advantage, but doing so can contribute to expressions of Islam that don't cast it in a very favorable light.
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That's for sure, and for the Saudis in particular there is now a heckuva case of buyer's remorse, similar to our fostering of radical Islam in Afghanistan to torment Ivan. When you stir up a hornet's nest on your neighbor's property, don't be surprised if you get stung too.
 
Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

unofan said:
So you're taking a cue from the Bob Gray school of argument whereby you claim you're leaving and then don't? Good to know. Since you combine that with the craziness of flaggy, you've got entertainment written all over your posts.

Surely you aren't seriously saying ISIS will have a d-day like foothold in western Europe by this time in 2017. You're not actually saying that's a real possibility, are you?
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If you look at how Jews are persecuted in Europe today, they practically already do.
 
Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

I see unofan's obsession with me continues. He apparently doesn't know that there is a sizable and growing Muslim population already in Europe and European governments are extremely concerned with folks from their Muslim communities going to fight for ISIS and then coming back, amongst other concerns.
 
FlagDUDE08 said:
If you look at how Jews are persecuted in Europe today, they practically already do.
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Clock is still running on your prediction that Obama would declare martial law and become dictator for life. Not looking good for you on that one.
 
Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Bob Gray said:
I see unofan's obsession with me continues. He apparently doesn't know that there is a sizable and growing Muslim population already in Europe and European governments are extremely concerned with folks from their Muslim communities going to fight for ISIS and then coming back, amongst other concerns.
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Jews are also moving back to Israel. Unlike sheeple in this country, they've learned from the Holocaust, which I'm sure the loonies on here are going to say didn't exist.
 
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