Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Interesting, but pretty much anything projecting out that far is highly speculative at best. And at 4 billion that would still be behind Asia's current population, and I'd assume there would be some amount of population growth there, though likely not what this article says about Africa. At 4 billion, some of the issues facing Africa would likely be staggering.

Heck, weren't they saying that India would surpass China's population by 2050?

 

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Interesting, but pretty much anything projecting out that far is highly speculative at best.

Absolutely true. There's also no telling whether being equatorial in 50 years is going to be outstanding (solar power) or hellish (climate change).

Much of my optimism about Africa comes from meeting technocrats at places like MIT and Stanford who were highly motivated to (1) make fortunes in telecomm, medicine, nanotech and (2) bring the wealth back to Africa, create stable economic and political institutions that observe the rule of law, and build a new system that mixes elements of European democracy, American entrepreneurship, and African communal values. They weren't exactly dreamers, either -- they were inspired, but also very down to earth. Their energy and commitment were pretty impressive. We'll see what they can do the next 10-25 years.

 

[joecct]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

The Patriot Act seemed like a good idea at the time (so did the internment of West Coast Japanese in 1942). Lots of rights get trampled when somebody attacks your country. But has the Law of Unintended Consequences shown us that the Patriot Act is, in fact, a bad law?

Case in point: http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...-principles/kPeZVKrweJDc3feoKveofJ/story.html

 

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Kipling is rolling over in his grave. TR too.

Kipling had a wry sense of humor about the whole thing. And it's not like he thought much of his fellow Brits. I suspect his WMB was parody that people didn't get, but Ernest Crosby made it explicit later:

Take up the White Man’s burden.

Send forth your sturdy kin,

And load them down with Bibles

And cannon-balls and gin.

Throw in a few diseases

To spread the tropic climes,

For there the healthy n*ggers

Are quite behind the times.

And don’t forget the factories.

On those benighted shores

They have no cheerful iron mills,

Nor eke department stores.

They never work twelve hours a day

And live in strange content,

Altho they never have to pay

A single sou of rent.

Take up the White Man’s burden,

And teach the Philippines

What interest and taxes are

And what a mortgage means.

Give them electrocution chairs,

And prisons, too, galore,

And if they seem inclined to kick,

Then spill their heathen gore.

They need our labor question, too,

And politics and fraud—

We’ve made a pretty mess at home,

Let’s make a mess abroad.

And let us ever humbly pray

The Lord of Hosts may deign

To stir our feeble memories

Lest we forget—the Maine.

Take up the White’s Man’s burden.

To you who thus succeed

In civilizing savage hordes,

They owe a debt, indeed;

Concessions, pensions, salaries,

And privilege and right—

With outstretched hands you raised to bless

Grab everything in sight.

Take up the White Man’s burden

And if you write in verse,

Flatter your nation’s vices

And strive to make them worse.

Then learn that if with pious words

You ornament each phrase,

In a world of canting hypocrites

This kind of business pays.

 

[joecct]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Kipling had a wry sense of humor about the whole thing. And it's not like he thought much of his fellow Brits. I suspect his WMB was parody that people didn't get, but Ernest Crosby made it explicit later:

IIRC the White Mans Burden was dedicated to TR for his "pacification" of the Phillippines.

 

[unofan]

The Patriot Act seemed like a good idea at the time (so did the internment of West Coast Japanese in 1942). Lots of rights get trampled when somebody attacks your country. But has the Law of Unintended Consequences shown us that the Patriot Act is, in fact, a bad law?

Case in point: http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...-principles/kPeZVKrweJDc3feoKveofJ/story.html

There were numerous people against the patriot act from the beginning. And Im not sure I agree these consequences are unintended.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

There were numerous people against the patriot act from the beginning. And Im not sure I agree these consequences are unintended.

We should test the theory. Create a huge, completely peaceful, polite, friendly protest movement that simply says, "Roll back the entire surveillance state. Restore September 10th." Pure peaceful resistance, across the entire political spectrum, no other linked issues.

We'll get called naive or crazy, and that's fine. Most people are more worried about terrorists than surveillance so we probably won't win politically. But if we get put on the watchlist or thrown in jail for that, then at least we'll know where we stand.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

We should test the theory. Create a huge, completely peaceful, polite, friendly protest movement that simply says, "Roll back the entire surveillance state. Restore September 10th." Pure peaceful resistance, across the entire political spectrum, no other linked issues.

We'll get called naive or crazy, and that's fine. Most people are more worried about terrorists than surveillance so we probably won't win politically. But if we get put on the watchlist or thrown in jail for that, then at least we'll know where we stand.

If that piece of sh*t Anwar Al Awlaki were still alive, he'd agree with you. I'm sure "Dr." Hasan does.

 

[joecct]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

We should test the theory. Create a huge, completely peaceful, polite, friendly protest movement that simply says, "Roll back the entire surveillance state. Restore September 10th." Pure peaceful resistance, across the entire political spectrum, no other linked issues.

We'll get called naive or crazy, and that's fine. Most people are more worried about terrorists than surveillance so we probably won't win politically. But if we get put on the watchlist or thrown in jail for that, then at least we'll know where we stand.

The Tea Party tried that. Look where it got them.

But if there is one near me, count me in.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

The Tea Party tried that.

No they didn't. The TP was only anti-surveillance as subservient to their whole anti-government (that is, anti-Democratic government) paranoid fantasy, and even then they still cross-matrixed it with all sorts of other stuff, the good (burn the banks), the bad (burn the Fed), and the ugly (burn the Mexicans).

 

[joecct]

No they didn't. The TP was only anti-surveillance as subservient to their whole anti-government (that is, anti-Democratic government) paranoid fantasy, and even then they still cross-matrixed it with all sorts of other stuff, the good (burn the banks), the bad (burn the Fed), and the ugly (burn the Mexicans).

Kepler

I was referring to the TP began as a peaceful protest movement on the size of government and taxes that got hijacked.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Kepler

I was referring to the TP began as a peaceful protest movement on the size of government and taxes that got hijacked.

I don't think anybody really knows. My impression was it began specifically about TARP. The Glenn Beck got involved and it became the Professional Idiots' "grr--I-hates-thuh-gubmint-grrr" arglebargle, and once Fox' audience started coming out the nativism and racism were inevitable.

And before any righty gets his panties in a twist, I think the mirror progression happened with Occupy: anti-bailout specifics / global justice generics / all the usual screamers.

The chance for the TP and Occupy to actually get financial reform was lost the second people started expanding the scope and applying litmus tests to the membership. A single-issue protest can get something done; the moment it spreads the beam and starts purging the ranks, it's done.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

We should test the theory. Create a huge, completely peaceful, polite, friendly protest movement that simply says, "Roll back the entire surveillance state. Restore September 10th." Pure peaceful resistance, across the entire political spectrum, no other linked issues.

We'll get called naive or crazy, and that's fine. Most people are more worried about terrorists than surveillance so we probably won't win politically. But if we get put on the watchlist or thrown in jail for that, then at least we'll know where we stand.

I'm in if you're in.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

We should test the theory. Create a huge, completely peaceful, polite, friendly protest movement that simply says, "Roll back the entire surveillance state. Restore September 10th." Pure peaceful resistance, across the entire political spectrum, no other linked issues.

We'll get called naive or crazy, and that's fine. Most people are more worried about terrorists than surveillance so we probably won't win politically. But if we get put on the watchlist or thrown in jail for that, then at least we'll know where we stand.

I'm in.

 

[joecct]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

The decline of Western Civilization as we know it. More evidence, this time from Great Britain
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...or-the-queen/?tid=HP_national?tid=HP_national

It's the Muslims I tell you! The Muslims!

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

We should test the theory. Create a huge, completely peaceful, polite, friendly protest movement that simply says, "Roll back the entire surveillance state. Restore September 10th." Pure peaceful resistance, across the entire political spectrum, no other linked issues.

Dunno. You may think that I'm naïve, but there are in fact real threats out there and even inside our own country. I think individuals are a bit hung up on the thought that someone's watching them and processing all this data on them. Reality is that nobody has the resources or interest to look at the gobs of data out there (and frankly nobody really cares if I watch Oprah (which I don't)). Spend any time at a major corporation with the reams of data they have and you'll get the picture. Frankly, this coming from a guy who is probably more of a target for such stuff as I've spent quite a bit of time overseas. But there are quite a few bigger priorities that require fixing (special interests, foreign problems) than this one.

Perhaps surveillance is a bit overdone...but if it ends up saving a large number of our lives at any point, IMO its worth it.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Perhaps surveillance is a bit overdone...but if it ends up saving a large number of our lives at any point, IMO its worth it.

There are real threats. The question is, has the erection of this massive, all-seeing, all-gathering surveillance state actually impeded our ability to mark the threats? Have we kicked up so much dust that we can't see what we're doing? That's been the real debate within the intelligence community, but by its nature that debate always ends the same way, because the people involved are self-selected for a certain psychology and, less obviously but still influentially, because there's money in expanding scope, not in contracting it. The result is the common bureaucratic "ratchet effect."

The other thing is even though budgets have ballooned resources are still, at the end of the day, finite, so all the overreach bleeds focus, energy, time, and money from the effective measures. So, we waste millions (if not billions) on airport measures which are largely Security Theater. Or, we gather every bit of every person's communication (and if you think this is in any way restricted, then that is naive), which increases the chaff the analysts have to sift through to find the real threats.

Threats are not, as a rule, a surprise. They correlate with other activity. When we cast an enormous net, it catches so many fish that we can't pull it in in time to find the few we are interested in.

And all of this is not to mention the "moral hazard" in eliminating privacy. Life in a Panopticon, however plush, is still imprisonment.

 

[joecct]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Kepler and I are in opposite sides of the political spectrum, but in this case we're in 100% agreement, even if i have to look up some of his big words.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

There are real threats. The question is, has the erection of this massive, all-seeing, all-gathering surveillance state actually impeded our ability to mark the threats? Have we kicked up so much dust that we can't see what we're doing? That's been the real debate within the intelligence community, but by its nature that debate always ends the same way, because the people involved are self-selected for a certain psychology and, less obviously but still influentially, because there's money in expanding scope, not in contracting it. The result is the common bureaucratic "ratchet effect."

The other thing is even though budgets have ballooned resources are still, at the end of the day, finite, so all the overreach bleeds focus, energy, time, and money from the effective measures. So, we waste millions (if not billions) on airport measures which are largely Security Theater. Or, we gather every bit of every person's communication (and if you think this is in any way restricted, then that is naive), which increases the chaff the analysts have to sift through to find the real threats.

Threats are not, as a rule, a surprise. They correlate with other activity. When we cast an enormous net, it catches so many fish that we can't pull it in in time to find the few we are interested in.

And all of this is not to mention the "moral hazard" in eliminating privacy. Life in a Panopticon, however plush, is still imprisonment.

We can complain all we want, but until we as a country decide we aren't going to play politics with every single thing, that is the world we will live in.

Having both the legal authority in place, and the people and technology necessary to gather the data, isn't the problem. The problem is the decision to use it, and that's driven by politics. If you have the authority and infrastructure but don't use it, you will be roasted politically when the next event occurs. But what's funny is that we will still roast the party in power politically when the next attack occurs, whether we've used the apparatus or not.

It's like the instruction books you get with products now. My wife just bought a new microwave. I need to know approximately 3 things about a microwave. How to set the cook time, which button to push to start the cooking, and how do I change the clock. I ask her how to do it and she hands me a 75 page instruction manual. I read approximately two sentences, then throw it away.

At the end of the day the microwave company has failed to pass along the 2 or 3 valuable nuggets of information I really needed, or should have, by burying it in 75 pages of crap. But they have "political" cover, or in this case, legal cover.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

The Patriot Act seemed like a good idea at the time (so did the internment of West Coast Japanese in 1942). Lots of rights get trampled when somebody attacks your country. But has the Law of Unintended Consequences shown us that the Patriot Act is, in fact, a bad law?

Case in point: http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...-principles/kPeZVKrweJDc3feoKveofJ/story.html

Many laws have been created out of emotion. The scariest ones are ones such as these, or New York City-state's (un)SAFE act, or Julius Caesar's actions from Ancient Rome when he essentially became a dictator for life and overthrew the Republic to create an Empire, are so complex yet passed so quickly that it's almost like the legislators knew that this sort of thing would happen including when, and had freedom-trampling legislation ready to be sold as "counteracting".