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Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

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Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

How many people would sign it all away if they could live a comfortable life, not bothered by the government with the only caveat that they have no say, not one iota, in how the country is run? And if you make too much of a ruckus, you lose it all.

Some contend that most people are sheep wanting to be herded. Given the % vote in this country, there seem to be a chunk of our population that don't give a hoot, either.
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

huskyfan said:
I think its arrogant to say democracy is only for whites, Europeans, Westerners, etc. Everybody ! has the right to be free. There is no litmus test.
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Yeah but don't they have to want it first? Cause otherwise arent we just forcing it on them? Or is it ok to force democracy on others because we say so?
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Handyman said:
Yeah but don't they have to want it first? Cause otherwise arent we just forcing it on them? Or is it ok to force democracy on others because we say so?
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Exactly. Some (eg Japan) wanted it. Others (Cuba, Iraq, etc.) do not. We have no right to interfere with their government.
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

TimP said:
Exactly. Some (eg Japan) wanted it. Others (Cuba, Iraq, etc.) do not. We have no right to interfere with their government.
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uh. I think Japan had it forced on them. How do you now Cuba doesn't want democracy? Iraq? they had a great turnout for their elections.
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

huskyfan said:
uh. I think Japan had it forced on them. How do you now Cuba doesn't want democracy? Iraq? they had a great turnout for their elections.
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When has Cuba ever expressed even the slightest hint that they want democracy? And before we invaded Iraq did you ever hear about the people wanting it? We forced the idea down their throat when we invaded. Lets see how much the Iraqis want democracy when we leave...oh wait we wont ever leave...VIVA LA LIBERTAD!!
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Handyman said:
When has Cuba ever expressed even the slightest hint that they want democracy? And before we invaded Iraq did you ever hear about the people wanting it? We forced the idea down their throat when we invaded. Lets see how much the Iraqis want democracy when we leave...oh wait we wont ever leave...VIVA LA LIBERTAD!!
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many Cubans who fled Castro have expressed it. but who knows what the "man in the street" wants now? he can't express it. the whole question is a Catch-22.
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

huskyfan said:
many Cubans who fled Castro have expressed it. but who knows what the "man in the street" wants now? he can't express it. the whole question is a Catch-22.
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Then let them fight for it...it isnt our job to fight their battles for them.
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

I'm certainly not suggesting we invade countries willy nilly and democratize them. But we have done that with countries we defeated in war - Germany, Japan and Iraq for instance. I don't think that's a bad thing. And I don't think their citizens do either.
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

huskyfan said:
I'm certainly not suggesting we invade countries willy nilly and democratize them. But we have done that with countries we defeated in war - Germany, Japan and Iraq for instance. I don't think that's a bad thing. And I don't think their citizens do either.
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That remains to be seen in Iraq...for now yes but when we leave the chances Democracy holds or the citizens care when it doesn't are slim. Otherwise I agree with you although Germany was split down the middle ;)
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

the verdict on Iraq is a long way out. but I'm always hopeful that given a choice people choose freedom.
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

huskyfan said:
the verdict on Iraq is a long way out. but I'm always hopeful that given a choice people choose freedom.
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The problem with "freedom of choice" in a large number of these new democracies is that majority rule is frequently embraced, but the other bedrock of our political system, protection of minority/individual rights and privacy, is frequently ignored. Throw into the mix post-colonial states made up of various ethnic groups with a maze of interwoven historical grievances and importing democracy wholesale to large sections of the third world is extremely risky.
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

BoomGoestheDynamite said:
The problem with "freedom of choice" in a large number of these new democracies is that majority rule is frequently embraced, but the other bedrock of our political system, protection of minority/individual rights and privacy, is frequently ignored. Throw into the mix post-colonial states made up of various ethnic groups with a maze of interwoven historical grievances and importing democracy wholesale to large sections of the third world is extremely risky.
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Well remember that wasnt ALWAYS one of the tenants of our democracy, it took decades for that to be true. These things have to grow over time you cant just force equality on people it will never stick.
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Handyman said:
When has Cuba ever expressed even the slightest hint that they want democracy?
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When do they get the chance? Even if what the left says is true about GITMO those would be only the SECOND worst abuses of human rights on that island. This would on the same line as saying "when has the North Koreans ever expressed the slightest hint that they want freedom?"

Totalitarianism is totalitarian for a reason.
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Patman said:
When do they get the chance? Even if what the left says is true about GITMO those would be only the SECOND worst abuses of human rights on that island. This would on the same line as saying "when has the North Koreans ever expressed the slightest hint that they want freedom?"

Totalitarianism is totalitarian for a reason.
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So we should just assume they do AND INVADE!!! It is obvious they want their democracy so lets just give it to them and if they fight it too bad WE SAID THEY HAVE TO HAVE IT!

Let them fight their own battles, you are a conservative shouldn't you agree with me?
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Handyman said:
So we should just assume they do AND INVADE!!! It is obvious they want their democracy so lets just give it to them and if they fight it too bad WE SAID THEY HAVE TO HAVE IT!

Let them fight their own battles, you are a conservative shouldn't you agree with me?
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I'm whatever I am... I'll agree whenever I feel like it.

Do I believe we should invade Cuba? No... the effort would be way too costly though if it were done tomorrow I think we could win in 3 days as the Castro boys would be caught off guard and only Chavez would scream about it.

I believe that there should be, in those of all western nations, a desire and an obligation to bring freedom and democratic principles to as many of those nations and peoples as we can. While some of this will of course need to be organic we can promote these methods without firing bullets... but we aren't.

I think the US policy should be one of open moral humiliation at the expense of the Castro brothers. I think we should air-drop subversive books into Cuba which one can buy at a B&N or Borders and do so without reservation or complaint. I think all manners of support should be given to free peoples even if they are just the tools needed to facilitate education in western thought and the ideology of democracy (and not some post-modernist mish-mash thereof). Instead of them annoying us we should be annoying them... be the man in the chicken suit who won't let you eat lunch.

I think as much of it needs to be locally supported as possible... we have neither means or the resources to save the world on our own right... of course to this end Europe should step up to the plate. Places without literacy need it, those with literacy need the tools, and when their government suppresses those tools we should go the extra mile and not be ashamed of it. If a dictator or his supporters are susceptible to humiliation through the notion of the freedom of ideas then we should exploit it.

Now tell me... how can we know the pulse of a nation if there is no way for that nation to speak and speak freely. How can we defend the notions of free people and free societies if we do not help those, in some manner, held in bondage by their governments?
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

We can't...and therein lies the problem. I guess I just dont think it is our duty to thrust democracy upon people or a country. I am all for educating the masses but beyond that we have no business telling them how they should be living their lives.

Why is it the US, a country that has about a million problems of its own right now, that needs to be "break the bonds" so to speak. Aren't we overextended enough. I know you mentioned Europe but that seems like a stretch when talking about Cuba because they are so far away. (I agree they should be all over the former Eastern Block and even Africa if that is what you meant) We just dont have the resources, manpower, or cash to be helping out the oppressed assuming they even want it.

Look I am not a strict isolationist, in fact normally I am all for helping out wherever needed but right now is not the time. We have a war in Afghanistan, a war in Iraq and we are losing money faster than we can print it! Get us out of Iraq (we gave them democracy already time to move on) and maybe I can see about helping out Cuba but how do you propose we go about airdropping these books into Cuba? How will we pay for it? What if it yields nothing? Right now we need to be worrying about the USA not anyone else.
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

huskyfan said:
the verdict on Iraq is a long way out. but I'm always hopeful that given a choice people choose freedom.
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Some thoughts while waiting for the FIOS guy to show up. He'll be here between 8 and 12. Odds will be 11:45 AM...

Call me a cynic, but they're tribal/clan based and that is the first loyalty. It's like trying to create Yugoslavia from all the Balkan states. As long as you had a strongman sitting on the powder keg (Tito or Saddam), everything looked OK.

Remove the stopper and you get a mell of a hess. Religious / tribal / clan wars all over the place. It did not stop in the Balkans until it went back to essentially 1914 borders. Wonder what Iraq will look like in 10 years or so.

What GWB forgot or ignored was the endgame. He (we) had enough pieces to win the initial phase, but politics abhors a vacuum and when Saddam died he left one heck of a power vacuum that we did not have the stuffing to fill.

Democracy over there? HAH! Benevolent despot (OUR despot, buy the way) may be the way to go.
 
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