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Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

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Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

The trouble with supporting despotism is the people of the country identify you with the despot. That's fine while he's still in power, but once they have their democratic revolution, you're part of the oppressive history. Once Saudi Arabia and Egypt become democracies, their populations are going to hate us with the fury of hell for being in cahoots with their oppressors for decades -- in the case of the Saudis, for actually imposing the government in the first place.

The foreign policy that lives up to our values and yields the most practical results is to offer lots of humanitarian aid to any people regardless of its government, never support any totalitarian or authoritarian regime despot with military aid unless it's a very temporary effort to combat some even more dangerous enemy, like terrorists in their territory who may also come after us, and encourage non-violent liberalization, particularly democratic reform from within the government itself, as a gradual evolution will lead to a less catastrophic transition than revolution.

We have a great system and, considered by the standards of expansionist empires of the past, excellent intentions. We just need to remember that deeds carry more impact than words, and when a village gets bombed its population will consider the bomber to be a murderous enemy for generations. We didn't invade Germany and Japan to liberate Germans and Japanese -- we did it to protect ourselves. You don't win hearts and minds by killing people's kids.
 
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Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

The foreign policy that lives up to our values and yields the most practical results is to offer lots of humanitarian aid to any people regardless of its government, never support any totalitarian or authoritarian regime despot with military aid unless it's a very temporary effort to combat some even more dangerous enemy, like terrorists in their territory who may also come after us, and encourage non-violent liberalization, particularly democratic reform from within the government itself, as a gradual evolution will lead to a less catastrophic transition than revolution.

Did you actually write that sentence with a straight face? :confused:
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

freedom for everyone!! even if you are a tribal / clan base society. we all have the right to human dignities. I can never support the idea of a despot.
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

The trouble with supporting despotism is the people of the country identify you with the despot.

I always thought the problem with Despotism was the food penalty. Wait, this isn't a discussion about Civ tactics?

didn't Bush change that? no more supporting undemocratic regimes?

Hi.
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

You could mean a lot of different things by this. Want to narrow it down?

Basically the reality of US foreign policy has always been much different than the ideal. Sure, we support "democracy" in the Mideast, but we sure as hell don't want a bunch of elected "radicals" holding power in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc. We can preach democracy to the Chinese and Russians, but we don't really want illiterate, nationalist peasants running the show. We preached democracy in Central America in the 80s and early 90s, but did our ****dest to keep juntas, strongmen, etc. propped up in El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala (albeit unofficially), Panama and tried to knock off Ortega in Nicaragua. But he's back again after being duly elected. We can also talk about Argentina, Chile, Vietnam, Iran, etc. too. Democracy is a nice concept, but sometimes it's pretty inconvenient too.
 
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Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Why do you all hate America? The United States would never support anyone who's intentions aren't the purest! We would never support some evil despot, we only back those that support democracy!

Now go back to Canada you America Hating leftist commie pink trash! :D
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

I assert it would also have been more convenient over the long haul to back away from, rather than back, the dictators. If we had based our Middle Eastern foreign policy on national interests broader than the Seven Sisters' bottom line, we would have a more stable and paradoxically more business-friendly relationship with those populations. Iran is the quintessential example of the short-sightedness of setting up corrupt client governments because of domestic commercial pressures.

In the long run the right thing to do is always the smart thing to do.
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

I always thought the problem with Despotism was the food penalty. Wait, this isn't a discussion about Civ tactics?

Does anybody ever run Communism? :confused: :p

BTW, I learned to my chagrin that if you load BTS 3.19 none of the user mods work. It was irritating enough that I stripped all of BTS out and rebuilt it back to 3.17.

Which sucks because 3.19 lets you run without disk for the first time since Civ 2.
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Does anybody ever run Communism? :confused: :p
I did for a period during almost every game. Until you got at least one of Women's Suffrage and Cure For Cancer, I found it to be too expensive to keep the people happy (especially during a war) as a Democracy or even a Republic. Plus weren't all new Spies automatically veterans if you were running Communism? That was useful if you fell behind in one particular research area.

[/nerd]
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

I did for a period during almost every game. Until you got at least one of Women's Suffrage and Cure For Cancer, I found it to be too expensive to keep the people happy (especially during a war) as a Democracy or even a Republic. Plus weren't all new Spies automatically veterans if you were running Communism? That was useful if you fell behind in one particular research area.

[/nerd]

Does anybody ever run Communism? :confused: :p

BTW, I learned to my chagrin that if you load BTS 3.19 none of the user mods work. It was irritating enough that I stripped all of BTS out and rebuilt it back to 3.17.

Which sucks because 3.19 lets you run without disk for the first time since Civ 2.
You know, bad enough I can't beat a 16 year old Frenchman at NCAA 2007, now I have to go on USCHO and deal with 2 people who could kill me at Civ 4.

Let me know when you get around to discussing badminton strategies to make Jon look like an idiot so we can come full circle.
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

You know, bad enough I can't beat a 16 year old Frenchman at NCAA 2007, now I have to go on USCHO and deal with 2 people who could kill me at Civ 4.

Probably not, I've never played online, just solitaire. I occasionally look at the Apolyton or CivFanatics forums and read about people scoring 100k on Deity and think (1) their strategies don't look like any fun and (2) Jesus H. Christmas, who are these people? Do they have families?
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Does anybody ever run Communism? :confused: :p

BTW, I learned to my chagrin that if you load BTS 3.19 none of the user mods work. It was irritating enough that I stripped all of BTS out and rebuilt it back to 3.17.

Which sucks because 3.19 lets you run without disk for the first time since Civ 2.

I used Feudalism and won, but Communism really only works if you have three major cores, and can put your Palace, Forbidden Palace and Police HQ in the middle of each core...it's very rare. If you're a war monger you just play Monarchy all the time. Feudalism only works if you have a bunch of small cities and don't build aqueducts. If really sucks because your income is reduced, science advances aren't as fast and you can't build much because you have pop 6. I usually play with a religious Civ and go Despotism --- Republic --- Democracy. If I get attacked I might switch to Monarchy because of WW. 2-turn Anarchy (1 the way I play) is a nice bonus.
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

You know, bad enough I can't beat a 16 year old Frenchman at NCAA 2007, now I have to go on USCHO and deal with 2 people who could kill me at Civ 4.
I've never played 4, if it makes you feel any better. :p
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

I can see Communism under some circumstances. The one real loser is Mercantilism under the econ models -- the only thing to be said for it is it might be a non-lethal solution while you run like hell for Capitalism.

That extra expert in every city is almost an annoyance in the 99% of your cities that aren't geared for Great Persons. It's of some marginal benefit if you're going for a Great Engineer to force a Wonder.

Actually, the "unlimited artsy experts" model is pretty worthless, too. I doubt I ever run that one.

Caveat: I'm a builder (of course), so warmongering may vary.
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

I've never played 4, if it makes you feel any better. :p

Me too. I ordered 4 when it was first released, then lost the discs before I installed it. :( But 3 gets quite the workout.
 
Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Wow...hey losers go play your game and let the adults talk :p ;) :p
 
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