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Ginding away- stop putting sand in my oil... Part 4

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Re: Ginding away- stop putting sand in my oil... Part 4

bigblue_dl said:
I was raised to believe that you make your own luck. Sorry, that is just the way I am. I have found that the way I was raised, on the farm, working our asses off starting at about 10 years old, gives a different perspective on these types of things than people that don't share that same experience. It is also what drove me to get a good degree, and a good job so I didn't have bust my *** on the farm all day everyday for the rest of my life.
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and sometimes people have the experience of watching hundreds and hundreds of their hard-working co-workers with years of experience let go, for absolutely no reason other than X number of people needed to go, and it was them. they're not that different from you, and you know you're lucky it WASN'T you. it gives a different perspective on things when you realize hard work/work ethic/experience was not the difference between who still had a job and who didn't - it's reality in a bad economy. Hard work is obviously important - but when you see choices made where it doesn't seem to matter, you know a little luck is involved as well. Just a different perspective from different experiences, I suppose.
 
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Re: Ginding away- stop putting sand in my oil... Part 4

bigblue_dl said:
...what drove me to get a a good job...
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But that good job isn't guaranteed, regardless of what degree you have or how hard you work. That job could be gone tomorrow and nothing you could have done or could do could prevent that. You made choices that decreased you chances of having sometime negative happen (hard work, engineering degree), but their are always (and always will be) variables that are outside of your control that can flip you from lucky to unlucky in a second. Life is never without risks, thus luck is always a factor in success.
 
Re: Ginding away- stop putting sand in my oil... Part 4

johnnypohlfan said:
I don't get what's so hard to understand on our side of this argument. No one here is saying luck is the be-all-end-all in anyone's employment status. But it does play a role, whether you like to think so or not. You're to be commended for your efforts in landing a good job, but for every one case like you, there's some person who did the same exact thing and can either not get a job, or got a job and then was let go for circumstances far beyond his control. You're saying that person is not the least bit unlucky?
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I don't think your last statement is anywhere close to true. The numbers don't add up. No more than 1/4 of the people are out of work now. Some of those are there due to their own faults, not all, I agree, but some of them picked careers for which there is little demand, some of them are slackers or just bad employees. Are some of us fully employed folks just lucky bastiges and some unemployed unlucky, hard workers who did the right things and still got caught? Absofriggingloutly.

That doesn't mean it's a one-for-one trade off. My belief is a lot closer to bb_dl's than to yours. I think MOST well employed and well off people got there due to MOSTLY their hard work, thoughtfull choices and good ethics. I think MANY of the un and under employed got there due to bad choices, poor work ethic and sloppy planning or slacking. I know a ton of people who are always struggling and see hte crappy planning they do, the instant gratification they pursue and just slacking performance. I just don't know that many struggling people who didn't make some significant contribution to their own condition. Meanwhile on the other side, there are some, like me :), who just caught some dumb luck to get where we are. But many more are like bb_dl, hard workers who made plans, looked ahead and made their own way.

Yeah, bad things can happen and the company you work for can go belly-up for no fault of yours, but if you are like bb_dl, you will roll up your sleeves and go find something else. If you haven't made bad choices and put yourself way into debt to have the newest, hottest car, the biggest big screen TV, the biggest house on the block, etc., etc. You will survive the set back and move forward. I've had my own business go bust and was out of work for a while, but I kept at it, found something else and got back in the black.
 
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Re: Ginding away- stop putting sand in my oil... Part 4

goldy_331 said:
Yeah, bad things can happen and the company you work for can go belly-up for no fault of yours, but if you are like bb_dl, you will roll up your sleeves and go find something else. If you haven't made bad choices and put yourself way into debt to have the newest, hottest car, the biggest big screen TV, the biggest house on the block, etc., etc. You will survive the set back and move forward. I've had my own business go bust and was out of work for a while, but I kept at it, found something else and got back in the black.
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yeah, but when you see people go through all that, not make any bad choices, and they still can't find a permanent job - it's hard not to feel lucky that you still have one.
 
Re: Ginding away- stop putting sand in my oil... Part 4

Goldy,
You're right. My statement was probably a gross exaggeration. Its surely not a 1:1 ratio. I'll retract that portion but I stand firm that bb's argument that luck plays no role was ridiculous and insulting.

I happen to have a degree in Accounting, a field that's still in demand. I still went through many interviews before landing a good job. Its brutal, and I at least have the empathy to realize that I am lucky that at this particular point in time, my area of expertise is desired by companies. Not everyone can be (or wants to be) an accountant, engineer, etc. That doesn't make them bums who should just try harder to get a job in an in-demand field.
 
Re: Ginding away- stop putting sand in my oil... Part 4

You make your own luck plain and simple.

At my first job I knew I was the low man on the totem pole. So when I was asked to do something, even if I had no idea how to do it or even where to go to find out how to do it, I'd ask when they wanted it done and I'd get it done by then. I made myself indispensable to the company. If they had a thankless job like being a one-man IT department serving offices in three states while still doing actual engineering, I volunteered. During the slowdown they laid off half our group and all that was left was me and my supervisor. I made **** sure they couldn't live without me. I worked hard and I did a **** good job in the process.

When I was on contract at a large local manufacturing company (only thinking I could get hired on in some sort of miracle) I made sure to do the same thing. I took the time to learn the lingo, the systems, the processes, the engineering manuals, the key contacts on site and in our main location. I made sure I was doing a good job while getting my name out there. By the time I asked about my prospects of being hired on, the supervisor I was working under had already spoken to her boss about hiring me.

Go out and give more than what is required for your position while still meeting the requirements of your core job duties.

You make your own luck.
 
Re: Ginding away- stop putting sand in my oil... Part 4

There is a reason old sayings stay around, there is usually truth in them. "The harder I work, the luckier I get" comes to mind.
 
Re: Ginding away- stop putting sand in my oil... Part 4

There's some truth to creating your own luck. Oakland U had a winter job fair back in February of this year; I was discouraged and debating whether or not to go, because there were so few employers interested in IS/IT majors, even at the Master's level. I ultimately dressed up and attended, talked to a rep from my current employer, interviewed twice, and it got me a contract which led to full-time status a few months ago. For people with college degrees that are in reasonable demand, I believe that if you put in the search time something will come up eventually, even if it takes time (it took me two years of contracts to finally stick with a company). Nonetheless, I believe that 'luck' is partially self-generated.

As for the people who took out $80,000+ in loans to major in Philosophy or American Literature - good luck to you. I hope you're gunning for a PhD and a professorship; reality is harsh.
 
Re: Ginding away- stop putting sand in my oil... Part 4

Twitch Boy said:
Know what else it was? It was also a lot cheaper, especially compared to wages. You could work your way through college on a summer McJob, or take out a loan and have it paid off in a year, even if you didn't get that big six figure job right away. Also, not everyone went to college. Take my home state of Michigan. You could graduate high school and have a spot on the line at one of the Big 3 waiting for you, and you'd be all set for a nice middle class life. And that was a perfectly acceptable way to be a productive member of society. Now you're viewed as sub-human if you try that (if you can even find one of those jobs nowadays.)

The "everyone's gotta go to college" demand combined with federally guaranteed loans has caused a massive rise in price of an investment whose real value is falling fast. That ain't good.
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There was also less required- No cell. no cable, no internet. When I was in grad school a PC or apple was for the rich people and the internet had no bearing on school. Kids in HS can't do without internet access now (my kid has things due on line). The cell and cable weren't even available.

Interesting to read everyone's opinions. From what I see you can work like a crazy person and still not be able to score a job in some fields or locations. For those just getting out of school mobility may less difficult but for those who are older it is hard to make your luck by moving out of state if you have a house/ kids. Very difficult to maintain things in both places when you can't afford one place even if you strip down to bare bones. For those who are just getting out moving far away may not be an option if pay is low enough not to sustain you.

Nursing is a great example. They told all these kids there would be a nursing shortage. The amt of nursing grads soared right as the economy tanked. Nurses that previously would have retired didn't. Nurses who were working PT went to FT is possible. The hospitals are shrinking staffing (whole other ball of wax). The jobs offered now are scarce even if you are willing to travel, work off shift etc. Many are not appropriate for entry level, no matter how hard they are willing to work. Most are PT/per diem which means there are unpredictable shifts = hard to work more than one job as both may need you at once and they don't respond well when you say no. The recent analysis done by some nursing org (?ANA) says the job market won't loosen for at least a few more yrs.
 
Re: Ginding away- stop putting sand in my oil... Part 4

bigblue_dl said:
I was raised to believe that you make your own luck. Sorry, that is just the way I am. I have found that the way I was raised, on the farm, working our asses off starting at about 10 years old, gives a different perspective on these types of things than people that don't share that same experience. It is also what drove me to get a good degree, and a good job so I didn't have bust my *** on the farm all day everyday for the rest of my life. (ironically, at about the same time I left for college, much of the physical labor was taken out of our farming operation, so I'd have ended up having a more laid back life on the farm than I do now :p)
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Yes but was it skill or luck you were born into your family?
 
Re: Ginding away- stop putting sand in my oil... Part 4

bigblue_dl said:
This isn't a valid question. If I was born into a different family I wouldn't be me, and very possibly, would be on the other side of the argument because I'd be a completely different person. :p
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As long as you realize your work ethic(which I'm not doubting at all) came from somewhere and that somewhere is the environment you grew up in. Where you grew up wasn't skill or hard work. Obviously that only matters to some degree, we all know folks who grew up in a hard working families who turned into dubs.
 
Re: Ginding away- stop putting sand in my oil... Part 4

Person A worked hard, got good grades, got a good degree and a good job due to all that hard work.

Person B worked hard, got good grades, got the same good degree at the same time and a good job at a rival company due to all their hard work.

The two companies competed for the same contract. Person A's company got the contract and it was completely out of his control. The company is able to continue being prosperous and even adds more jobs.
Person B's company lost the contract and had to downsize, meaning although Person B has done a great job for 10 years, they are out because the company just can't afford to keep them on.

You do 'make' much of your luck, but sometimes bad things happen anyway.
 
Re: Ginding away- stop putting sand in my oil... Part 4

zamboni crash-test dummy said:
I lost a supply chain management job in 2007 when production down south was transitioned to Mexico and China. That's bad luck - out of my control. However, I had created my own good luck by doing the things over the 6 years I was there that dxmnkd316 speaks of: mastering skills not necessarily in my job description but made me more effective (like SQL, everything I could learn about AS/400, ISO, financials, learning & applying Six Sigma process improvement tools, inventory analysis, covering other distribution centers around the country when someone quit/got fired/needed training, etc). Things like that that got me a good reputation with suppliers, customers and corporate office so as word got out of our impending fate I was offered multiple opportunities before I had even started looking.

I ended up taking a job with a customer and started the Monday following my last Friday at the other place so I was never without employment.

I have interviewed several candidates over the years for supply chain positions and was amazed at how few could distinguish themselves from the rest of the pack. Maybe instead of saying 'you create your own luck' it's more accurate to say 'you create your own breaks' - maybe not for the moment but for the future when you need it. You're doing this every single day you go into work whether you realize it or not.

Whatever you call it, dxmnkd316 is dead right.
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You create your own opportunities, making it appear that luck doesn't matter. You can minimize the chances of something negative happening, but at the end of the day that risk is ever present. You can reduce the probability that something negative will happen, but you can never completely eliminate the risk that bad luck will strike.
 
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Re: Ginding away- stop putting sand in my oil... Part 4

The non-stop media coverage of this model who no one has ever heard of that was dumb enough to walk into a spinning airplane propeller and got hurt. Why does anyone care about this? Why do I have to see it on my television throughout the day? Call me crass, but I don't exactly feel sorry for this girl. All she really did was reinforce the stereotype that models aren't really all that bright.

Commence with the tongue lashing. I'm expecting it.
 
Re: Ginding away- stop putting sand in my oil... Part 4

johnnypohlfan said:
The non-stop media coverage of this model who no one has ever heard of that was dumb enough to walk into a spinning airplane propeller and got hurt. Why does anyone care about this? Why do I have to see it on my television throughout the day? Call me crass, but I don't exactly feel sorry for this girl. All she really did was reinforce the stereotype that models aren't really all that bright.

Commence with the tongue lashing. I'm expecting it.
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I said the same thing to Mr les :o
 
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