Gender Studies I

[unofan]

Sources. Data. Hard evidence. You have none.

You're a former distance runner, Amber. Why is a women's qualifying time for Boston slower than the men's for the same age group? Why do the women's elite go first to avoid them drafting off the male elites?

 

[MissThundercat]

And even if various state high school athletic associations set up standards like the IOC and Crossfit have on trans athletes, you'd still be throwing a fit on how we're bigger, stronger, and have more facial hair. I've seen this game before. You'd rather we not compete. Also, sweetie, the Boston Marathon is ahead of the curve and allows trans athletes to compete, pending lab work and a couple other things. When that decision came through, a whole lot of people cried in their morning oatmeal, saying the exact same things you're saying now.

 

[dxmnkd316]

And even if various state high school athletic associations set up standards like the IOC and Crossfit have on trans athletes, you'd still be throwing a fit on how we're bigger, stronger, and have more facial hair. I've seen this game before. You'd rather we not compete. Also, sweetie, the Boston Marathon is ahead of the curve and allows trans athletes to compete, pending lab work and a couple other things. When that decision came through, a whole lot of people cried in their morning oatmeal, saying the exact same things you're saying now.

Pretty sure he was clear about lab work earlier.

 

[unofan]

You'd rather we not compete.

I don't have a dog in this fight since I have a Y chromosome. Whether you compete or not in the women's division literally has no bearing on me.

Also, sweetie, the Boston Marathon is ahead of the curve and allows trans athletes to compete, pending lab work and a couple other things.

And if you actually read what I've posted in this whole thread rather than what you think I'm saying, I've been strictly talking about pre-transition athletes that still have their full testosterone levels, darlin'.

 

[Kepler]

I'll pose the same question to you as I did to MissT:

Why are the qualifying standards for Women significantly less than Men in Track & Field (at all levels, but specifically looking at the High School level)? I mean, gender is just a social construct right? This is basically saying that Person A needs to meet one standard, but Person B needs to meet another...

You completely misread my post about social constructs. I'm sorry (sincerely) it was opaque, let me try again.

Human identity is the issue, and that isn't a social construct, it's a reality. People live that and understand it and express it.

All the rest of this stuff -- qualifying standards, competition rules, sports as games themselves -- is a bunch of arbitrary stuff we overly smart apes came up with to amuse ourselves while we weren't masturbating, social grooming lice, or murdering each other. It's cultural and completely inside our skulls, like law, aesthetics, and Floor is Lava. It isn't anything real outside us.

Do not let the wiggly lines inside our heads harm real, actual people. The people are what matter. The other stuff is tools we created to help people -- it's not otherwise important.

 

[Kepler]

That's funny coming from a defense contractor.

I think you know me well enough to know just how wide of the mark that was if you were trying to embarrass me. I help murder innocent people. Rhetorical casuistry is not high on my anxiety list.

In all honesty: I somehow conducted that entire exchange as if you were one of our engineers. Your comments were so reductionist and shortsighted I just assumed it could not be someone with a liberal arts or humanities background.

The Times regrets the error.

 

[unofan]

I think you know me well enough to know just how wide of the mark that was if you were trying to embarrass me. I help murder innocent people. Rhetorical casuistry is not high on my anxiety list.

In all honesty: I somehow conducted that entire exchange as if you were one of our engineers. Your comments were so reductionist and shortsighted I just assumed it could not be someone with a liberal arts or humanities background.

The Times regrets the error.

My pardons, comrade. You're the only truly enlightened person on this board and the rest of us are just ignorant plebs who simply can't understand the wisdom being imparted.

Sure all sports are constructs meant to provide enjoyment and competition. But the rules are there to ensure the competition is fair within those constructs. That often means limiting certain competitions by age groups or gender or weight class skilled flights to ensure it's actually competitive. You wouldn't put an u8 soccer team up against an u16 team, for instance, right?

You're telling me you can't understand why people who compete in the women's division might find it similarly unfair to have to now compete against someone who is genetically male and has not started any hormone therapy or undergone any surgery, and therefore still has all the physical advantages that comes with their Y chromosome?

 

[Jeb2020]

I think you know me well enough to know just how wide of the mark that was if you were trying to embarrass me. I help murder innocent people. Rhetorical casuistry is not high on my anxiety list.

In all honesty: I somehow conducted that entire exchange as if you were one of our engineers. Your comments were so reductionist and shortsighted I just assumed it could not be someone with a liberal arts or humanities background.

The Times regrets the error.

Man (no pun intended) if you are really a Defense Contractor that is really rich with all your spouting off about Facism. Keep up the good work.

 

[Jeb2020]

Some ideas to consider.

• Throw away Male/Female divisions, best of the best.
• Create a Trans league.
  • Men's leagues remain open, if you can hack it you can make the team.

 

[unofan]

Kep, us debating this is also about as useful as a Republican congressional panel on abortion. I'd ask you to discuss this with Dr. Mrs. if you haven't already, because I'm guessing she has a competitive streak given that she has a doctorate. While it's possible she may agree with you, I think it's also possible she may not.

I know my opinion has been informed by my wife's, who is generally far more liberal than myself

 

[Kepler]

You're telling me you can't understand why people who compete in the women's division might find it similarly unfair to have to now compete against someone who is genetically male and has not started any hormone therapy or undergone any surgery, and therefore still has all the physical advantages that comes with their Y chromosome?

I'm telling you the people upset about this are rightwing cranks who have found yet another way to smuggle their misogyny and Christian Talibanism into issues that are irrelevant to it.

They use this to mainstream their hatred and bigotry. By propounding it you are falling into a trap and being an unwitting asset for them.

These people are bad. You are not bad, you are just being played.

 

[MissThundercat]

In other news: two days later, ONE boob hurts, but the other one feels fine. I'll finish the Keflex and Norco regimen before I drive again.

 

[MissThundercat]

I'm telling you the people upset about this are rightwing cranks who have found yet another way to smuggle their misogyny and Christian Talibanism into issues that are irrelevant to it.

They use this to mainstream their hatred and bigotry. By propounding it you are falling into a trap and being an unwitting asset for them.

These people are bad. You are not bad, you are just being played.

In most cases, it's not the kids who are upset. It's the PARENTS. It's the entitled parents of the world who are very upset that a trans teenager took a spot on the team from their precious little child. Conservative online rags such as LifeSiteNews run one of these stories every day. And the rationale that it's "biology" leads people like Tulsi Gabbard and Kelly Loeffler to propose genital inspections before anyone can compete in sports. This proposed legislation usually goes nowhere, but it's a good way for the Mike Pences of the world to get riled up.

 

[unofan]

I'm telling you the people upset about this are rightwing cranks who have found yet another way to smuggle their misogyny and Christian Talibanism into issues that are irrelevant to it.

They use this to mainstream their hatred and bigotry. By propounding it you are falling into a trap and being an unwitting asset for them.

These people are bad. You are not bad, you are just being played.

Or, you know, I could be related by blood and marriage to female athletes ranging in skill and ability from a former D1 scholarship athlete to your average suburban housewife playing sports primarily just to stay fit, and have heard discussions about it among them and their friends.

But you must be right, I must be an unwitting pawn by the vast RWNJ media empire instead

 

[Kepler]

Or, you know, I could be related by blood and marriage to female athletes ranging in skill and ability from a former D1 scholarship athlete to your average suburban housewife playing sports primarily just to stay fit, and have heard discussions about it among them and their friends.

But you must be right, I must be an unwitting pawn by the vast RWNJ media empire instead

You are willfully missing the point.

 

[Kepler]

In most cases, it's not the kids who are upset. It's the PARENTS. It's the entitled parents of the world who are very upset that a trans teenager took a spot on the team from their precious little child. Conservative online rags such as LifeSiteNews run one of these stories every day. And the rationale that it's "biology" leads people like Tulsi Gabbard and Kelly Loeffler to propose genital inspections before anyone can compete in sports. This proposed legislation usually goes nowhere, but it's a good way for the Mike Pences of the world to get riled up.

Certainly true. They use their kids as pawns for their nonsense. They aren't even advocating for their precious little snookums, either. They have a human shield for the garbage in their heads and if you question it then it's WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!?!

This same crap was used about lesbians in sports and before that about interracial sports. This is just another spin of the bigotry wheel.

Here is what is real: athleticism is a test of differential biological gifts. A 6-10 basketball player is going to dunk on a 5-10 one and it's not a matter of "character" or "competitive fire." The lottery isn't fair.

The one thing you try to do is not allow cheating. But it's not cheating to be 6-10 and it's not cheating to be born a woman in a man's body.

So for all those athletic women and girls out there so deeply concerned that trans women threaten the integrity of the sport by ruining the level of competition: you're only there because your genetic gifts ruined the competition! You're the freak. Now shut up, sit down, and stop shaming people for who they are you entitled little upper middle class thirsty forks trying desperately to make up for your B average* to get into Dartmouth by having a varsity letter.

Daddy will buy you a car as compensation.


* OK, C average, as a B is sufficient to get into Dartmouth.

 

[ericredaxe]

You are willfully missing the point.

Candidly, So are you.

 

[MissThundercat]

Being blunt:

Most of the time, no one really cares about high school girls' sports except for the parents and friends of the players. For most people, when they see "Local High School Girls' Soccer Team Wins State Championship" in the local newspaper, they'll yawn, not even offering a "good for them," and eagerly await the start of football or basketball season, whatever makes the local high school the most money.

Those same people who yawn over high school girl's sports, however, will fly into an apoplectic fit when a trans teenager is introduced to the team, crying how it's not fair to the other girls, how the trans teenager is inevitably bigger, stronger, and has more facial hair, and how their precious child was cheated from a spot on the team. They'll go to internet comment sections, the district Board of Education, the local City Council, to their dog, they'll whine to anyone who will listen. It's not really about protecting women's sports, it's whining about how the world is changing into something they don't like, and how this is all Very Unfair.

But instead of perpetually taking it out on my community, I wish they'd take their iPhone, go sit in their first gen Prius, record and upload a 60 minute video to their social media pages whining about how life is unfair.

I've seen jerks who whine about trans women competing in sports before. But more and more trans women are competing, and it's becoming the norm. And I have a smile stretched from ear to ear knowing that all the whining and kvetching over this couldn't stop it.

 

[MissThundercat]

Candidly, So are you.

The only point you've made is you don't want my community fully integrated into society. You and plenty of others want "separate but equal." People like you are why I think Magneto was right:

Because there is no land of tolerance. There is no peace. Not here, or anywhere else. Whole families destroyed, simply because they were born different from those in power. Well, after tonight, the world's powerful will be just like us. They will return home as brothers, as mutants. Our cause will be theirs. Your sacrifice will mean our survival. l'll understand if that comes as small consolation.

 

[ericredaxe]

The only point you've made is you don't want my community fully integrated into society. You and plenty of others want "separate but equal." People like you are why I think Magneto was right:

So far in this thread I have:

- Wished you luck in your procedure.
- Shared an article (which it appears from your comments that you never bothered to read) discussing potential complexities in keeping trans-women involved in athletics in a way that keeps the competitive field level and also reviews the challenges of our society actually having a legitimate discussion about it. (Which this thread has become a perfect illustration of).
- Said that I thought many more people care about women's athletes than you think do.
- Called Kepler out for refusing to acknowledge that a cis-gendered girl could legitimately find it unfair to have to compete against a trans-woman who has yet to begin any sort of hormone therapy etc and that doing so does not make her a trans-phobic Taliban nazi.

A UNO mentioned before, it appears you are reading what you think people are saying in this thread (perhaps because you want to pick a fight) instead of what people are actually saying.