What's new
By:
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

Gender Studies I

Status
Not open for further replies.
MissThundercat said:
41% attempted suicide rate.
Click to expand...

I wish everyone was informed about this, and really understood it. Average people, as a rule, while almost impossibly stupid, are not monsters. People believe idiotic things because their parents (unwittingly) or politicians (wittingly) or pastors (both) misinform them. But almost nobody enjoys inflicting pain. Almost everyone has empathy.

When confronted with that number I have to believe even religious wingnuts will say, "This is more important than the ideas in my head. This is about real human beings, not theories. I may continue to think what I think, but I won't keep spewing it, because then I become responsible for that number."
 
My experience with sharing that fact with virulently anti-trans people is that they usually say they need to get mental health care and no further thought. When I press, saying "well, how is that paid for" they usually throw their hands up and move on.
 
I'm sure they would reverse the causal arrows and think "being trans is a sign you are mentally ill," and not recognize that their abusive treatment of trans people is what causes such a high degree of suffering that a person wants to die.

The smug self-satisfaction of people who have all the answers because they're in a magic book. People who not only will not challenge their assumptions but regard that as sacrilege. People who willingly stop being human and become automata.
 
Kepler said:
Fishman, gender is different from sex. Gender is socially defined; sex is physically defined. Gender does not necessarily follow from sex. We take our cues from sex in estimating gender, but the person themselves gets the final word.

We have now had close to twenty years of public discussion about this difference, and of these cases, so it is pardonable if the person making your grand assumptions and statements contra medical and psychological consensus runs the risk of being dismissed as a troll. On the chance you are not, I can state that as an Old, even finding the distinction easy to grasp, I still had difficulty putting myself into the mind and body of people whose gender has been misassigned.

But one thing I have no trouble understanding is they go through hell, and the cynical political manipulation of their pain for the electoral advantage of Republicans is yet one more reason the Right is held in the esteem it currently is.
Click to expand...

I disagree; "sex" (the noun) and "gender" are biological facts. Having been in many delivery rooms back before this sort of thing was even an issue, never heard anyone say: "It's a they!"

I'm old, too. I remember when gay people were compelled to hide their sexual preference. And, I was lucky enough to live through the transition. The whole deal is so much better now. I absolutely love that. Nobody has to hide any more.

But, there are many bumps in the road ahead if we recognize gender on demand. That seems obvious to me.

Is having the transitional surgery the fork in the road between the real and the merely declared? I guess I'd have to go for that idea at this point. Put up, shut up, or just ask to be referred to by your preferred pronoun.

(And we all despise MAGATS around here, JSYK.)
 
Fishman'81 said:
gender on demand.
Click to expand...
Here’s your problem right here. You’re fulminating and foaming at the mouth over something that doesn’t statistically occur. I’m sure there’s an anecdote out there where someone lives part of the time as one gender and part of the time as another, switching fluidly back and forth. But in the vast, vast majority of transgender cases, the person transitions once and lives the rest of their days as the gender that they feel they should have always been.

And don’t go down the “after surgery” route. Why should the right to live as the person you are be predicted on ability to pay for an extensive course of medical interventions? You’re just going to have to get used to the idea that some women happened to be born with dicks and that some men happened to be born with ovaries. The sooner you come to peace with that fact, the sooner you will let go of your hate and fear, and the happier you will be.
 
Fish, without rancor, the lived reality of your fellow human beings has passed you by. You seem to believe there are certain unchanging social facts, and take comfort in that. But the truth is: there are no unchanging social facts. We made them all up, and if enough of us want to we can change them.

There used to be broad social consensus that blacks were inferior to whites. Conservatives argued passionately and sincerely that making blacks legal equals was perilous and also unfair to blacks themselves. And not just malevolent madmen: Lincoln, a thoughtful humanitarian visionary, was one such.

There used to be broad social consensus that women were inferior to men. Conservatives argued passionately and sincerely that making women legal equals was perilous and also unfair to women themselves. And not just malevolent madmen: here is an example of humane misogyny.

Likewise with gays, who it has been argued by well-being people that they must be rescued from their debasement and disease. Here is a history of attempts to "cure" LGBTs for their own good.

And now the same with trans identity.

Your mistake is attributing social custom to natural fact. It is true it would be unfactual to say biological sex does not exist. But gender is entirely made up, like language, law, ethics, religion, and art. It reflects the human heart, which means it is infinitely changeable. You are standing athwart the tracks and hollering STOP! just as those other conservatives did, and you do not realize the train has already rolled on past. Humanity has moved on from the lessons you imbibed. It happens, quite literally, to all of us, if we live long enough. Etienne Gilson, whose intellectual feet I am unfit to wash, hollered long and hard after the authoritarian spell of monotheism was broken. He missed its loving embrace, and mistook his deep psychological need for an essential fact. You are not alone, and you are not hateful for making that error that we all do.

Let it go and stop tormenting people.
 
Last edited:
Kepler said:
Fish, without rancor, the lived reality of your fellow human beings has passed you by. You seem to believe there are certain unchanging social facts, and take comfort in that. But the truth is: there are no unchanging social facts. We made them all up, and if enough of us want to we can change them.

There used to be broad social consensus that blacks were inferior to whites. Conservatives argued passionately and sincerely that making blacks legal equals was perilous and also unfair to blacks themselves. And not just malevolent madmen: Lincoln, a thoughtful humanitarian visionary, was one such.

There used to be broad social consensus that women were inferior to men. Conservatives argued passionately and sincerely that making women legal equals was perilous and also unfair to women themselves. And not just malevolent madmen: here is an example of humane misogyny.

Likewise with gays, who it has been argued by well-being people that they must be rescued from their debasement and disease. Here is a history of attempts to "cure" LGBTs for their own good.

And now the same with trans identity.

Your mistake is attributing social custom to natural fact. It is true it would be unfactual to say biological sex does not exist. But gender is entirely made up, like language, law, ethics, religion, and art. It reflects the human heart, which means it is infinitely changeable. You are standing athwart the tracks and hollering STOP! just as those other conservatives did, and you do not realize the train has already rolled on past. Humanity has moved on from the lessons you imbibed. It happens, quite literally, to all of us, if we live long enough. Etienne Gilson, whose intellectual feet I am unfit to wash, hollered long and hard after the authoritarian spell of monotheism was broken. He missed its loving embrace, and mistook his deep psychological need for an essential fact. You are not alone, and you are not hateful for making that error that we all do.

Let it go and stop tormenting people.
Click to expand...

Honestly, for people who scream "don't shove your transness in our face," they're the ones who shove being trans in our face, making us live on the defensive, and making us justify our existence.

All I wanted to do was drink coffee, go to work, come home, watch Netflix, and go to bed. Not answer the same tired ass questions 47 times a day.
 
LynahFan said:
Here’s your problem right here. You’re fulminating and foaming at the mouth over something that doesn’t statistically occur. I’m sure there’s an anecdote out there where someone lives part of the time as one gender and part of the time as another, switching fluidly back and forth. But in the vast, vast majority of transgender cases, the person transitions once and lives the rest of their days as the gender that they feel they should have always been.

And don’t go down the “after surgery” route. Why should the right to live as the person you are be predicted on ability to pay for an extensive course of medical interventions? You’re just going to have to get used to the idea that some women happened to be born with dicks and that some men happened to be born with ovaries. The sooner you come to peace with that fact, the sooner you will let go of your hate and fear, and the happier you will be.
Click to expand...

A: Work on your syntax.

B: No one is "fulminating", aside from yourself. It is indeed possible to discuss this topic without wetting oneself.

C: A little biology primer for you: women aren't born with dicks, and men aren't born with ovaries... Making a social choice via gender-identification doesn't change this immutable fact. That much is utterly obvious to the entire glob of humanity.

You (and others on here) seek to paint me as a hateful individual, but I'm not that "they", or whatever. I neither fear nor hate TS peeps, but you hate me, for curious reasons. I'm just pointing out the very obvious inconsistencies in your (il)logic.

To reiterate, I'm fine with anyone assuming any gender-identity. Never had any sort of issue with that, on an ordinary social basis. But what happens when there are actual legal issues related to gender? How's that going to work?
 
Fishman'81 said:
A: Work on your syntax.

B: No one is "fulminating", aside from yourself. It is indeed possible to discuss this topic without wetting oneself.

C: A little biology primer for you: women aren't born with dicks, and men aren't born with ovaries... Making a social choice via gender-identification doesn't change this immutable fact. That much is utterly obvious to the entire glob of humanity.

You (and others on here) seek to paint me as a hateful individual, but I'm not that "they", or whatever. I neither fear nor hate TS peeps, but you hate me, for curious reasons. I'm just pointing out the very obvious inconsistencies in your (il)logic.

To reiterate, I'm fine with anyone assuming any gender-identity. Never had any sort of issue with that, on an ordinary social basis. But what happens when there are actual legal issues related to gender? How's that going to work?
Click to expand...

What possible legal issues are there for gender that don't involve a locker room or bathroom?

And I'm excluding those two scenarios because they're somehow safe harbor for conservatives.
 
MissThundercat said:
Honestly, for people who scream "don't shove your transness in our face," they're the ones who shove being trans in our face, making us live on the defensive, and making us justify our existence.

All I wanted to do was drink coffee, go to work, come home, watch Netflix, and go to bed. Not answer the same tired *** questions 47 times a day.
Click to expand...

I am trying to say something different.

There are, at most, 69 people who mattered in human history. None of us knows who they were.

Nobody anybody has heard of matters.

The rest of us just try not to f-ck it up.



But the effect of her being on those around her was incalculably diffusive: for the growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts; and that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been, is half owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in unvisited tombs.
Click to expand...

Don't you get it, you pathetic morons?

Get out of your head.
 
Last edited:
Fishman'81 said:
women aren't born with dicks, and men aren't born with ovaries.

I'm fine with anyone assuming any gender-identity.
Click to expand...

These two statements are contradictory. If you were actually okay with people adopting “new” gender identities, then you would be able to look us in the keyboard and say, “A trans woman IS a woman, and that woman happened to be born with a dick.”

But you won’t, because deep down in your brain, you don’t believe that trans women ARE women. You see it as “taking on a role” or “play acting,” not as being an expression of who they truly are. Putting on the clothes, adopting new patterns of speech, even surgery, are all just the outward, physical signs of the person inside.

Denying that someone is who they know themselves to be IS hate, no matter how much you think that the many other non-hateful things you do in other areas of your life somehow prove that you can’t be hateful in this way.

Given how marginalized and vulnerable the trans community is, yes, seeing expressions of hate toward them makes my blood boil - I would have more understanding towards people who pulled the wing off of flies or kicked puppies.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top