Gear Grinding 7: Really? This crap again?

[alfablue]

Re: Gear Grinding 7: Really? This crap again?

And I say destroy those lines. I say wear that stuff, and explain why. "You can't wear this because you're white" is bullsh*. It really is. You can't do that because you're male? Bullsh*. Every time we bring up boundaries and why they have to be acknowledged, we strengthen the extremists. Hell, let's go further: You can't wear a hijab because that means it's Muslim and that's bad! Bullsh*.

Enough with double standards.

In an ideal world, you would be right. We don't live in an ideal world.

But for decades, if not hundreds of years, minorities of all kinds were oppressed by mostly white males. People were constantly belittled for being a minority- again, it does not matter which minority- but every one of them were belittled and made to feel inferior. Let alone the legal separations that put the white male in a position of domination.

So when you say "white power" every minority thinks you are wanting to go back to those days. As opposed to Black Power or Gay Pride or even Black Lives Matter are all just statements demanding that they be treated the exact same as you have. They don't want to have a higher rate of tickets, they don't want a higher rate of being shot, they want to vote as easily, they want schools that are the same as yours, they want neighborhoods where the value of their property can go up instead of down, they don't want to get stabbed for who they are. They just want the same system that you operate in. And it's going to take some very biased hard work to make it that.

When you say "Straight is Great"- it says to the minority- 1) they are not one of you, and can't be and 2) because of that, you are better than them. What's sad about that is that the people you are trying to make a joke to don't get it- and it's THEIR fault they don't get it. Again, you are pointing out how superior you are to them. Pretend you don't think that all you want- you are just digging your hole deeper.

IMHO, you should at least make an attempt to understand that. The less you do, and the more you belittle them, you then risk an actual movement to overthrow your white male domination. It's a whole lot easier to empathize and just give minorities the equal treatment- IN REALITY- as they as asking for.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Gear Grinding 7: Really? This crap again?

And I say destroy those lines. I say wear that stuff, and explain why. "You can't wear this because you're white" is bullsh*. It really is. You can't do that because you're male? Bullsh*. Every time we bring up boundaries and why they have to be acknowledged, we strengthen the extremists. Hell, let's go further: You can't wear a hijab because that means it's Muslim and that's bad! Bullsh*.

Enough with double standards.

Show me a world where things are fair for those you think are receiving this double standard and I will show you a world where your argument isnt naive and ignorant.

Not everything is the same, context matters. Just because to YOU it feels like it should be the same doesnt mean it actually is.

Honest question. Lets say you see a person hung in effigy that looks like you. How does that make you feel? Now lets say a Black Person sees it how does that make them feel? I guarantee you are both thinking of different things and feeling different emotions. As long as that is true this White People notion of "same/same" can bite me. I brought it up before it is like "White History Month" which the racists...errr...poor oppressed White Folk always talk about. You dont get White History month because EVERY MONTH IS WHITE HISTORY MONTH!

Brent either you are trolling or you never really got all that old school rap you always talk about. Those songs (in content and just in general) go against your entire point.

But lets close on this point...until everyone is treated equally by society, the government and the law there are going to be double standards. Dont like it, fix the bigger problem first.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Gear Grinding 7: Really? This crap again?

But lets close on this point...until everyone is treated equally by society, the government and the law there are going to be double standards. Dont like it, fix the bigger problem first.

And part of treating everyone equal in society is erasing these double standards. How can everyone be treated equal if we keep pointing out the differences between everyone as a reason for something?

It's not being naive, or ignorant, or "white privilege," or whatever. I know it's a very tough task, I know the realities of this world, etc. Gotta start somewhere.

Oh, wait, I can't be the one to do it because then it looks like I am acting out on White Guilt, right?

 

[alfablue]

Re: Gear Grinding 7: Really? This crap again?

And part of treating everyone equal in society is erasing these double standards. How can everyone be treated equal if we keep pointing out the differences between everyone as a reason for something?

It's not being naive, or ignorant, or "white privilege," or whatever. I know it's a very tough task, I know the realities of this world, etc. Gotta start somewhere.

Oh, wait, I can't be the one to do it because then it looks like I am acting out on White Guilt, right?

Once the minority is actually equal to the white male, then we can talk. Where they don't have to fear being shot at a higher rate than you. Where they don't have to fight for good schools the same way you do. Where they are not STILL at a huge disadvantage because your parents could own a home while theirs cant. Where they don't have to worry about being challenged and having longer lines to vote than you do. Where they get the same growth opportunities as you do. Where they can get served without some bias, or still have to be worried about getting fired. It took some serious teeth pulling for some of the minorities to be seen on an equal standing when it comes to marriage. And people are still looking for excuses to treat them like sub-people.

You are not even attempting to understand what they are asking for- so why do you think they will understand where you are coming from?

You still don't get that they just want to be treated the same as you, and are proud of who they are in spite of what white males have done over the last few centuries to them. And still do in many cases.

 

[jen]

Re: Gear Grinding 7: Really? This crap again?

And part of treating everyone equal in society is erasing these double standards. How can everyone be treated equal if we keep pointing out the differences between everyone as a reason for something?

It's not being naive, or ignorant, or "white privilege," or whatever. I know it's a very tough task, I know the realities of this world, etc. Gotta start somewhere.

Oh, wait, I can't be the one to do it because then it looks like I am acting out on White Guilt, right?

So by your thinking - we should just act like everyone gets treated equally, and then they magically will be?

There are many, many people in this country that do not treat everyone equally. I'm not just talking about the types that wear white hoods and burn crosses, or shoot anyone with different colored skin - every day, normal people, in ways you likely don't even notice. Until every single one of those people treats everyone equally - there needs to be what you call a "double standard" to even the playing field, or things are never going to change. Like others said, you can't just place an idealistic rule on real people and expect everyone will adhere, and if they don't - oh well, too bad. That changes nothing.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Gear Grinding 7: Really? This crap again?

And I say destroy those lines. I say wear that stuff, and explain why. "You can't wear this because you're white" is bullsh*. It really is. You can't do that because you're male? Bullsh*. Every time we bring up boundaries and why they have to be acknowledged, we strengthen the extremists. Hell, let's go further: You can't wear a hijab because that means it's Muslim and that's bad! Bullsh*.

Enough with double standards.

An amazing hypocrisy in this post. You get upset at the minorities choice of WORDS. But previous posts you get upset that they don't like your choice of WORDS.

Again, you put zero effort into understanding. THAT is why they have to fight for equality.

 

[joecct]

An amazing hypocrisy in this post. You get upset at the minorities choice of WORDS. But previous posts you get upset that they don't like your choice of WORDS.

Again, you put zero effort into understanding. THAT is why they have to fight for equality.

When will the fight be over? When what Brent wants is true?

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Gear Grinding 7: Really? This crap again?

Hmm....

In every culture, majority or minority, women face gender discrimination, sometimes quite severe.

Yet here we find a bunch of self-righteous males arguing about how men in minority communities need special treatment because of prior discrimination.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Gear Grinding 7: Really? This crap again?

So by your thinking - we should just act like everyone gets treated equally, and then they magically will be?

There are many, many people in this country that do not treat everyone equally. I'm not just talking about the types that wear white hoods and burn crosses, or shoot anyone with different colored skin - every day, normal people, in ways you likely don't even notice. Until every single one of those people treats everyone equally - there needs to be what you call a "double standard" to even the playing field, or things are never going to change. Like others said, you can't just place an idealistic rule on real people and expect everyone will adhere, and if they don't - oh well, too bad. That changes nothing.

Not that I agree with Brent's take on this subject or that I suggest people wear "Straight Pride" or similar t-shirts, but do you agree it's fair to say the "standard" I've highlighted in bold will never be met? Being a member of a class that has been historically discriminated against or ostracized is not like being on the endangered species list, where, with a little time, you can find yourself taken off the list. Really what we are talking about here is that it will never be acceptable to wear a "white pride" or "straight pride" or "proud to be male" t-shirt?

 

[alfablue]

Re: Gear Grinding 7: Really? This crap again?

When will the fight be over? When what Brent wants is true?

I doubt it will ever be over. But it's a good time to check and see if each one of us has biases and we can work on them individually.

Denying someone rights that YOU have just because they are different is a bad thing, joe- and I know you are full in on that. You may be like brent, and deny your biases- it's hard to tell. But you are biased, no question about that.

So demanding that we stop the opposite from people like you two is pretty bad.

It sucks that laws have to be written to prevent bias, and protect people. But it has to be done. Otherwise, we will never be a free society.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Gear Grinding 7: Really? This crap again?

Not that I agree with Brent's take on this subject or that I suggest people wear "Straight Pride" or similar t-shirts, but do you agree it's fair to say the "standard" I've highlighted in bold will never be met? Being a member of a class that has been historically discriminated against or ostracized is not like being on the endangered species list, where, with a little time, you can find yourself taken off the list. Really what we are talking about here is that it will never be acceptable to wear a "white pride" or "straight pride" or "proud to be male" t-shirt?

Again, you fail to see the long term implications of each side's T-shirts.

The minority is protesting to be equal, after years and years of white males telling them- either with words, actions, or policies- that they are not. So their shirts are telling you that they are proud of who they are and are standing up for their rights, in spite of the years of repression.

The "white pride" kid of shirts just remind people that white males have been in charge for centuries, and you want to keep that going.

 

[jen]

Re: Gear Grinding 7: Really? This crap again?

Hmm....

In every culture, majority or minority, women face gender discrimination, sometimes quite severe.

Yet here we find a bunch of self-righteous males arguing about how men in minority communities need special treatment because of prior discrimination.

Pointing out one group's discrimination does not negate all others.

Not that I agree with Brent's take on this subject or that I suggest people wear "Straight Pride" or similar t-shirts, but do you agree it's fair to say the "standard" I've highlighted in bold will never be met? Being a member of a class that has been historically discriminated against or ostracized is not like being on the endangered species list, where, with a little time, you can find yourself taken off the list. Really what we are talking about here is that it will never be acceptable to wear a "white pride" or "straight pride" or "proud to be male" t-shirt?

Will it be better than it is now? Yes. Historically, it's happened and IS happening (and people had to be forced to do it). Will it be perfect? Doubtful. Certainly not in my lifetime.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Gear Grinding 7: Really? This crap again?

Again, you fail to see the long term implications of each side's T-shirts.

The minority is protesting to be equal, after years and years of white males telling them- either with words, actions, or policies- that they are not. So their shirts are telling you that they are proud of who they are and are standing up for their rights, in spite of the years of repression.

The "white pride" kid of shirts just remind people that white males have been in charge for centuries, and you want to keep that going.

I haven't failed to see anything. I get it.

I'm a white, hetero, male. I can say I feel no "pride" in that, not because I suffer from the self-imposed guilt that some others have apparently chosen, but simply because I don't look at it as something to have pride in. It's just who I am, not anything that I accomplished.

People who wear "gay pride" or "black pride" shirts aren't necessarily proclaiming pride in being gay or black. They are proclaiming pride in being a member of a persecuted group, and thriving or rising above it.

I just think it would have been easier and more honest if people would have told Brent straight out, "you will never get to wear a straight pride shirt" rather than suggest that at some point, when the persecution ends, it may be acceptable. That just will never exist.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Gear Grinding 7: Really? This crap again?

And I say destroy those lines. I say wear that stuff, and explain why. "You can't wear this because you're white" is bullsh*. It really is. You can't do that because you're male? Bullsh*. Every time we bring up boundaries and why they have to be acknowledged, we strengthen the extremists. Hell, let's go further: You can't wear a hijab because that means it's Muslim and that's bad! Bullsh*.

Enough with double standards.

Interesting that no one else had this stick out to them. If you could guarantee the ability to have the conversation with every person who saw the shirt and were willing to spend your whole time defending the meaning of it I would struggle but I could understand the point. Unfortunately there will be way more people who will see this shirt (thing) and not knowing you, make the assumptions that you are in line with the 'supremacist' side. Some of those may actually take this as support for their ideology and feel emboldened to know others 'support them' and are willing to wear something saying so. Is this fair? Nope. It is not. But- it is reality.

I am both camps- I am white, middle class but I am old enough to still feel the sting of what being female means. There are still disadvantages but NOTHING like when I was little.

I was brought up in a neighborhood behind an Air Force Base and from an early age was taught all colors were equal. Negroes (yes, I am old enough that this is what they were called) were no different than white people. I thought myself unprejudiced, enlightened and informed of what people experienced for prejudice. Was I ever wrong. I was definitely in the minority mindset when we moved to the Lowell area- possibly one of the most bigoted areas I have ever experienced. We rented to a Black (the term at the time) Professor who was a very cultured, deeply religious Catholic and his sister- an undergrad at the time. All I can say is wow. The entire neighborhood ostracized us all. We were the target of pointed remarks aimed past us, things 'happened', we were watched from the minute we left the house or the car. When the guy tried to participate in Bible study he was not welcome. The lady 5 doors down (who didn't get the memo we weren't to be spoken to) told me she was shocked he thought he should participate altho she was very surprised he seemed to know about the Bible. I could go on. The level of reaction far surpassed anything I could have anticipated or expected. I felt like I was a leper and lived in a foreign land.

When we put the house on the market the man across the street from us condescended to speak to me- only to tell me he hoped I knew better than to sell to someone who wasn't the right type of people- like Cambodians or [someone of another color- I can't remember his exact term]

It gave me a whole new perspective on what it meant to be of a different color or ethnic group. It was like looking into the nasty underbelly of white folk.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Gear Grinding 7: Really? This crap again?

Well I think it was heavily implied in my posts since there will never be a point where things are equal. If not then let me just say, most likely those shirts will never be seen as acceptable

And to prove my point...my girlfriend just watched a Documentary about a HS in Georgia that has segregated Proms in 2002. No blacks can go to the White Prom. If a Black and White person go together they must go to Black Prom. In 2002...

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Gear Grinding 7: Really? This crap again?

Well I think it was heavily implied in my posts since there will never be a point where things are equal. If not then let me just say, most likely those shirts will never be seen as acceptable

And to prove my point...my girlfriend just watched a Documentary about a HS in Georgia that has segregated Proms in 2002. No blacks can go to the White Prom. If a Black and White person go together they must go to Black Prom. In 2002...

I remember reading something about that or a similar situation last year or in 2015. IIRC, the kids actually started to organize a non-school affiliated replacement prom where all were welcome. It eventually forced the school to change its stance - the parents' stances.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Gear Grinding 7: Really? This crap again?

I remember reading something about that or a similar situation last year or in 2015. IIRC, the kids actually started to organize a non-school affiliated replacement prom where all were welcome. It eventually forced the school to change its stance - the parents' stances.

Are you sure you werent just watching Footloose?

Chris Penn's dancing is the tue hero of the Civil Rights Movement

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Gear Grinding 7: Really? This crap again?

Are you sure you werent just watching Footloose?

Chris Penn's dancing is the tue hero of the Civil Rights Movement

Actually, the article referenced the movie at the start of it, about the situation being straight out of a movie.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Gear Grinding 7: Really? This crap again?

Actually, the article referenced the movie at the start of it, about the situation being straight out of a movie.

I have never been more proud

 

[joecct]

Re: Gear Grinding 7: Really? This crap again?

You know what will end most of this cr@p?

Interbreeding. Or, as a Southern bigot once said, "The miscegenation of the races."

Give it 100 years to play out. Sure there will still be "pures", but many of the living will be polyglot.