Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

outsourcing US jobs to China does not benefit the US economy.

Do you have evidence to support that contention? or is this purely an emotional, intuitive response based on what you think "should be" the case, but not connected to any actual evidence to support it?

There is evidence [somewhere, have to find it....rummage, rummage....] that indicates that, for every three low-paying job outsourced to another country, one additional, higher-paying job is also created inside the US in a managerial capacity.

That study did not include the incremental increase in shipping jobs that occurred as a result of increased overall economic activity....nor did it address the incremental additional US exports to the country to which the jobs were outsourced, as they now could afford to buy more US goods than before due to higher wages there.


Your argument parallels Obama's, that ATMs put bank tellers out of work....while conveniently neglecting to mention all the jobs ATMs also created in their manufacture and servicing. It is emotionally appealing yet neglects to include the full picture.


The next time your computer crashes at 3 AM and you call tech support and someone is there who actually helps you, will be just like the next time you are out partying at 3 AM and need cash.....instead of waiting for the bank to open, you can go to the ATM; instead of waiting for the US call center to open, you can be connected to a call center in Bangalore. People want the services provided by the outsourced jobs. You want both to complain about outsourcing on one hand while you also enjoy the fruits that are made available as a result of the same outsourcing.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

I always thought that was a funny inconsistency with some folks. They swear by natural selection/evolution in one area, saying nothing else could be on the table, but in other places they rail against anything looking remotely like natural selection.

I don't know that people are necessarily advocating natural selection in the wild as the ideal outcome. I think they just believe its how life works.

I think capitalism is great to a large extent (have MBA, do management consulting)...but the big question is the extent to which we need natural selection in society.

 

[geezer]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

I think capitalism is great to a large extent (have MBA, do management consulting)...

I'm pretty sure that according to Barry Hussein Chavez Obummer, that makes you a "vampire". Stay inside til it gets dark just in case.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

I don't know that people are necessarily advocating natural selection in the wild as the ideal outcome. I think they just believe its how life works.

Correct. "Nature red in tooth and claw" is not an attractive model for human behavior. Civilization is equivalent to deliberately improving upon the initial conditions of life and creating structures and methods to replace the solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short limitations of nature.

It's no surprise that the strong want to be unencumbered to abuse the weak. Government exists in large part to band together the rest of us to protect against the narcissism of those with the biggest sword or the heaviest purse.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

I'm pretty sure that according to Barry Hussein Chavez Obummer, that makes you a "vampire". Stay inside til it gets dark just in case.

There must be a complicated joke to make here about silver and bi-metalism but I'm not up to it.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

The next time your computer crashes at 3 AM and you call tech support and someone is there who actually helps you, will be just like the next time you are out partying at 3 AM and need cash.....instead of waiting for the bank to open, you can go to the ATM; instead of waiting for the US call center to open, you can be connected to a call center in Bangalore. People want the services provided by the outsourced jobs. You want both to complain about outsourcing on one hand while you also enjoy the fruits that are made available as a result of the same outsourcing.

That's a really nice story, but not founded anywhere in reality. I used to work the overnight shift at a Microsoft call center. We were there 24/7/365. Now if you're waiting for the US call center to open you're going to be waiting a long time. There is no US call center...every job has been outsourced to India. Sure, some of the specialists may sound like they're from America - and some of them will say they're in America - but they're not. When I worked for Dell, we were told to tell people we were from Austin (gee, why do all these people from Texas talk with Downeast accents?) and our desktop had the local forecast for Austin so if someone asked how the weather was, we could tell them. The other day I called to cancel a credit card and talked to "Bob in Mississippi." It's just a weird coincidence that Bob in Mississippi sounded a lot like Rajib from Bangalore.

People don't WANT the services provided by these outsourced jobs. We don't have a choice. If we were put into a queue "Press 1 to be connected to an American, Press 2 to be connected to India" everyone but the masochist would choose 1.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

the big question is the extent to which we need natural selection in society.

There's always natural selection, the challenge becomes, on what level does selection operate and which traits are being selected for?

(there's also a separate issue between "society" and "business"; we may have one set of criteria for business and a different set of criteria for society).


The problem with business is that it primarily uses money as a selection criteria. Many people say that, while money does matter somewhat, also say that additional criteria also should be rated more highly than they are. At one time when most business was local, you saw that happen, businesses were involved in civic functions to make their communities better; to some extent you still see it (Walmart for example has a program by which every US store donates money to local charities; I know because we've hit up local Walmarts for money in several different communities in which we've lived).


Some might say that the selection criteria we value is learned helplessness....(people with incomes of $30,000 or more pay 103% of federal income tax, because transfer payments to people with incomes below $30,000 are counted as a "negative" income tax, which is bovine fecal matter and merely a game with words). I would hope not; however the marginal income tax rate to move from below $30,000 to above $30,000 is extremely high and sends the wrong behavioral signal.

Incentives do matter. People do change their behavior to adjust for changes in incentives.

A program of cradle-to-grave government support says that people who work in government are more important than everyone else, and that all people are helpless without government assistance. that may be a fine enough point of view; it also is contrary to centuries of an American ideal that was based on communal cooperation and personal responsibility for oneself and for the overall well-being of their community.

The Dems ignore the first two parts, the Reps ignore the third part; and most people are dissatisfied with both parties for being out of touch.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

That's a really nice story, but not founded anywhere in reality.

[redacted, what's the use.......]

 

[Rover]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Well said Priceless. Fishy's latching onto tech support proves he's making this up as he goes along. Indian tech support is not providing a service that Americans would not provide themselves. That could be the stupidest thing I've even seen posted out here (not counting posts from people in Arizona) and that's saying something. In fact Verizon tech support generally is in the US, and the company doesn't seem to be suffering from it.

Fortunately, I have some experience in this field. A prior employer of mine used to spend an untold amount of money flying people over from India, housing and feeding them for several months while they were being trained, only to watch them leave 6 months later for another job on the other side of their complex in Bangladore because they now had experience and training with an American corp. Then the cycle would renew. Problem was, most of the talented people from there have already left for higher paying jobs or educational opportunties in the US, England, etc. What we were left with was the dregs.

But to answer the question, say a US job gets outsourced to China. Under knuckledragger logic, that's swell because that now employed person overseas will use their new found income to purchase US goods. Problem is they can purchase goods made from other countries, or their own country, just as well. A newly employed Chinese laborer will most likely spend money on food and housing, both of which are domestically produced over there. Hence, no benefit for the US unless you're Mittens cashing a big check afterwards (and lets hope he spends some of that in the US also).

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Well said Priceless. Fishy's latching onto tech support proves he's making this up as he goes along. Indian tech support is not providing a service that Americans would not provide themselves. That could be the stupidest thing I've even seen posted out here (not counting posts from people in Arizona) and that's saying something. In fact Verizon tech support generally is in the US, and the company doesn't seem to be suffering from it.

Fortunately, I have some experience in this field. A prior employer of mine used to spend an untold amount of money flying people over from India, housing and feeding them for several months while they were being trained, only to watch them leave 6 months later for another job on the other side of their complex in Bangladore because they now had experience and training with an American corp. Then the cycle would renew. Problem was, most of the talented people from there have already left for higher paying jobs or educational opportunties in the US, England, etc. What we were left with was the dregs.

But to answer the question, say a US job gets outsourced to China. Under knuckledragger logic, that's swell because that now employed person overseas will use their new found income to purchase US goods. Problem is they can purchase goods made from other countries, or their own country, just as well. A newly employed Chinese laborer will most likely spend money on food and housing, both of which are domestically produced over there. Hence, no benefit for the US unless you're Mittens cashing a big check afterwards (and lets hope he spends some of that in the US also).

So your anecdote proves how it always works?

My company has had excellent experience outsourcing menial analysis tasks to India (computational fluids, structural finite element analysis, etc). We NEVER fly those guys over here for training, and they perform top-notch work. Their rates have been rising, but they are still <20% of the equivalent labor rate for a US engineer. I'm sure there's some turnover, but personally, I've been working with the same 3-4 guys for 3+ years now. They are an integral, crucial part of our team that enables us to win business and keep our US-based employees employed and to increase the throughput of our factories - all of which are located in the US. There's no doubt in my mind that utilizing those 3-4 guys in India has protected 10-15 jobs in the US, so the benefit to the US does not depend on their buying US products.

 

[geezer]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

So your anecdote proves how it always works?

My company has had excellent experience outsourcing menial analysis tasks to India (computational fluids, structural finite element analysis, etc). We NEVER fly those guys over here for training, and they perform top-notch work. Their rates have been rising, but they are still <20% of the equivalent labor rate for a US engineer. I'm sure there's some turnover, but personally, I've been working with the same 3-4 guys for 3+ years now. They are an integral, crucial part of our team that enables us to win business and keep our US-based employees employed and to increase the throughput of our factories - all of which are located in the US. There's no doubt in my mind that utilizing those 3-4 guys in India has protected 10-15 jobs in the US, so the benefit to the US does not depend on their buying US products.

Oh you hush up with yer stupid gray area. Furriners are pure evil and shouldn't have jobs.

 

[joecct]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Oh you hush up with yer stupid gray area. Furriners are pure evil and shouldn't have jobs.

Unless they're hockey players.

 

[Rover]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

So your anecdote proves how it always works?

My company has had excellent experience outsourcing menial analysis tasks to India (computational fluids, structural finite element analysis, etc). We NEVER fly those guys over here for training, and they perform top-notch work. Their rates have been rising, but they are still <20% of the equivalent labor rate for a US engineer. I'm sure there's some turnover, but personally, I've been working with the same 3-4 guys for 3+ years now. They are an integral, crucial part of our team that enables us to win business and keep our US-based employees employed and to increase the throughput of our factories - all of which are located in the US. There's no doubt in my mind that utilizing those 3-4 guys in India has protected 10-15 jobs in the US, so the benefit to the US does not depend on their buying US products.

Ahhh yes, a true conservative sticking up for outsourcing. Nice. Now tell us how tax cuts for the rich pay for themselves.

However, you did miss the point which was tech support people in India are doing a service that Americans wouldn't perform themselves (Fishy's assertion). Does your staff in India also help you assemble straw men, or do you take care of that "on shore"?

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Romney's biggest problem.

On the key question of how to lower the long-term debt, Romney takes the view that only spending on entitlements matters. Everything else can and should actually add to the debt. More Pentagon spending and more tax cuts for everyone, including the 1 percent (even below the Bush era rates), are fine. That kind of debt is somehow not debt for Romney because he assumes that if you slash taxes, revenues will increase. This was an interesting theory in 1981. It is a failed experiment today. (Why we need to drastically increase defense spending in a period of necessary austerity is beyond me.)

But Romney is stuck with the position that he would even turn down a 10-1 ratio, and that the cuts should be entirely on the backs of the poor, while increasing defense spending, and lowering still further the taxes paid by his own class.

How on earth do you win a general election when you are so far out on the fringe?

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Oh you hush up with yer stupid gray area. Furriners are pure evil and shouldn't have jobs.

You summed up our position so eloquently.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

So your anecdote proves how it always works?

My company has had excellent experience outsourcing menial analysis tasks to India (computational fluids, structural finite element analysis, etc). There's no doubt in my mind that utilizing those 3-4 guys in India has protected 10-15 jobs in the US, so the benefit to the US does not depend on their buying US products.

I have always been a social 'liberal' and a big free trader. I have believed in efficiency of resources and specialization. Companies better compete, money flows to those best at doing the job and the customer benefits. And we are all customers. In the end, each country does its thing, poor countries then become spenders, and everyone comes out ahead. Which has been largely true.

Yet for the first time ever, its blatantly obvious there's a problem here. The US is losing some jobs and gaining others as comparative advantage would say. And my guess is that the value of those jobs is roughly equivalent. But the problem is the number of jobs is not. So we may lose 1000 manufacturing jobs and gain 40 multimillionaire innovation tycoon jobs...with money lost and gained being about the same. Which is also what comparative advantage would say as the US is world beater in top end out of the box innovation. The problem is we have a net loss of 960 jobs.

The outcome? The stock markets fine. Many businesses do well. But unemployment doesn't go away. Which is what's happening. I don't think isolationism is the answer. But rather hypercompetitiveness. Go after improving the US' labors ability to compete...and US business' opportunity to go on the offense overseas.

But it this trend of losing low end jobs and gaining just a few high end ones that will continue. And as it does, wealth disparity will increase and the country will become unhealthy. And with the current environment of low taxes and cut all government investment in making the US competitive (such as education) its a long term recipe for disaster.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

However, you did miss the point which was tech support people in India are doing a service that Americans wouldn't perform themselves (Fishy's assertion).

The larger picture is that the foreigners will do a service that Americans won't perform themselves for the same salary. Find me an engineer in the US who will perform finite element analysis 40 hours per week, 50 weeks per year for $20k salary and no benefits and then you will have a point. It's not a black-and-white question of whether Americans will or won't perform the service - if tech support paid $200k per year, Americans would be falling all over themselves to perform that service.

 

[bronconick]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

That's great. Then Romney can use his Bain history to get himself elected Prime Minister of India, since he's done so much to improve their economy.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

I have always been a social 'liberal' and a big free trader. I have believed in efficiency of resources and specialization. Companies better compete, money flows to those best at doing the job and the customer benefits. And we are all customers. In the end, each country does its thing, poor countries then become spenders, and everyone comes out ahead. Which has been largely true.

Yet for the first time ever, its blatantly obvious there's a problem here. The US is losing some jobs and gaining others as comparative advantage would say. And my guess is that the value of those jobs is roughly equivalent. But the problem is the number of jobs is not. So we may lose 1000 manufacturing jobs and gain 40 multimillionaire innovation tycoon jobs...with money lost and gained being about the same. Which is also what comparative advantage would say as the US is world beater in top end out of the box innovation. The problem is we have a net loss of 960 jobs.

The outcome? The stock markets fine. Many businesses do well. But unemployment doesn't go away. Which is what's happening. I don't think isolationism is the answer. But rather hypercompetitiveness. Go after improving the US' labors ability to compete...and US business' opportunity to go on the offense overseas.

But it this trend of losing low end jobs and gaining just a few high end ones that will continue. And as it does, wealth disparity will increase and the country will become unhealthy. And with the current environment of low taxes and cut all government investment in making the US competitive (such as education) its a long term recipe for disaster.

Some of the proposed "solutions" will solve nothing and actually make the problem worse:

Facebook co-founder Eduardo Saverin's recent decision to give up his U.S. citizenship in favor of long-term residence in Singapore has drawn fresh attention to the appeal of residing and investing in the wealthy city-state and other parts of Asia, where tax burdens are significantly lighter than in many Western countries.

...

"The U.S. used to be a moderate tax jurisdiction compared with other countries and it used to be at the forefront of development," said Lora Wilkinson, senior tax consultant at U.S. Tax Advisory International, a Singapore-based tax services firm that specializes in U.S. taxation laws. Now "it seems to be lagging behind countries like Singapore in creating policies to attract business."

She said she gets at least one query per week from Americans who are interested in renouncing their citizenship in favor of becoming Singaporeans.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...70.html?mod=WSJ_hp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsThird

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

That's great. Then Romney can use his Bain history to get himself elected Prime Minister of India, since he's done so much to improve their economy.

Unlike His Unemployedness.