Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

I think you answered your own question.

It really wasn't a question. I was just pointing out a flaw in your statement. Pro Choice does not equal Pro Abortion.

Putting it another way...

Being Pro Life is a choice. Forcing that choice on someone is an identical analogy to your mother forcing an unborn child to not live (by not giving it the chance/choice).

I'll say one more thing, and then my soiree in this topic is done. I don't believe in abortion other than in cases of rape, incest, or harm to the mother. That being said, I'm Pro Choice for 2 main reasons:

1) A woman should have control of her body
2) IF abortion was illegal, women who wanted abortions would still get them. The only difference is that they would be more apt to injury/death than otherwise. Basically, I highly doubt that a woman decides to get an abortion just because it is legal.

Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled madness...

 

[gojackets]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Geesh, the bad faith on here. I was only paraphrasing. (In a follow-up to that, he said "God creates life, and that was my point. God does not want rape, and by no means was I suggesting he was" -- did I also conveniently leave that out?)

But the part you quoted still doesn't change my point, which is separate from whether Mourdock is loony, or whether this bodes well or ill for either side two weeks before an election, or whether he made his argument in bad faith, or any of that; it's that there is a good faith and morally consistent argument to be made that life is life, and humans should not be in the business of ending it. This isn't even something I completely believe, especially the no death penalty part; but people I respect have made impressive arguments for it, and it has me thinking.

Every other species of animal on the planet kills members of its own species...especially in the case of survival.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

It really wasn't a question. I was just pointing out a flaw in your statement. Pro Choice does not equal Pro Abortion.

Putting it another way...

Being Pro Life is a choice. Forcing that choice on someone is an identical analogy to your mother forcing an unborn child to not live (by not giving it the chance/choice).

I'll say one more thing, and then my soiree in this topic is done. I don't believe in abortion other than in cases of rape, incest, or harm to the mother. That being said, I'm Pro Choice for 2 main reasons:

1) A woman should have control of her body
2) IF abortion was illegal, women who wanted abortions would still get them. The only difference is that they would be more apt to injury/death than otherwise. Basically, I highly doubt that a woman decides to get an abortion just because it is legal.

Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled madness...

So, you're saying if abortion is allowed, women don't get a choice? Or that if a baby is aborted it gets a chance at life? What I said in that post was pretty basic logic.


And yes, of course there are different levels as to how much people support or oppose abortion. I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

 

[bronconick]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

There's lots of pro-life cartoons I could put up. Saw one recently with the caption "No, no Barack, you're supposed to KISS the babies."

Yeah, but you've already established that you don't have a sense of humor, so you can save us all the Chick Tracts.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Yeah, but you've already established that you don't have a sense of humor, so you can save us all the Chick Tracts.

Chick Tracts? Don't know what those are.

Humor is in the eye of the beholder. Unlike you, I won't pronounce whether other people have a sense of humor or not. Frankly, I think sometimes you try too hard to be funny. Sometimes you do ok.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

So, you're saying if abortion is allowed, women don't get a choice? Or that if a baby is aborted it gets a chance at life? What I said in that post was pretty basic logic.

No. In regards to the analogy...

Pro Life = choosing life when pregnant (because we all know all too many "pro life" people who are for the death penalty...but that's another discussion)
Abortion = choosing no life when pregnant

If Pro Lifers got their way (at least in theory), women would not be able to make a choice.
If a woman has an abortion, the unborn fetus would not be able to make a choice.

Basically, in either situation, someone (assuming you call an unborn fetus a person) loses their choice.

What you said in your post was...

You allow abortion, and women get choice, but babies don't get a chance to have a life.

So, you say that Woman's choice = baby does not get chance to live. In other words, you say that Woman's Choice (or Pro Choice) = Abortion. My proposition was that Pro Choice does not equal Pro-Abortion.

 

[Foxton]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

You're correct. It's simply logical that of a person believes that life is life at conception, it's life at conception regardless of how the conception took place. But, logic has little application in this arena.

Logic has little to do with anything you say or do.

Maybe if hard core pro lifers like you actually cared about the person who has to carry the child, raise and support the child, your life is precious garbage might have some resonance. But it's made abundantly clear by the actions of those in charge of such a movement and the ones that support it in the gov't that life is only important and worth protecting up until it exits the mysterious lady parts and then it's just another freeloader. Which will hopefully grow up big and strong enough to pump out more babies or to go off and fight the next war.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

No. In regards to the analogy...

Pro Life = choosing life when pregnant (because we all know all too many "pro life" people who are for the death penalty...but that's another discussion)
Abortion = choosing no life when pregnant

If Pro Lifers got their way (at least in theory), women would not be able to make a choice.
If a woman has an abortion, the unborn fetus would not be able to make a choice.

Basically, in either situation, someone (assuming you call an unborn fetus a person) loses their choice.

What you said in your post was...

So, you say that Woman's choice = baby does not get chance to live. In other words, you say that Woman's Choice (or Pro Choice) = Abortion. My proposition was that Pro Choice does not equal Pro-Abortion.

Thanks for walking me through what you were saying. Certainly there is a difference between someone who is pro-choice and someone who is pro-abortion. But, it's also true that by being pro-choice one is supporting a position that in the end results in more abortions. That's part of the baggage inherent in being pro-choice.

The way you put it above though is interesting in that it points out that choice has been placed on a higher priority than life, since that's the two things you talked about as someone having to give up. Not a prioritization I could ever support.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Once again the ignore feature is my friend, so I don't have to see Foxton's latest rant.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Ironically, many people seem to think that the SCOTUS reached approximately the right "place" on the spectrum in Roe vs Wade while using abominable reasoning ("emanations" from "penumbras" still rankles!)

Sadly, most states were already moving that way anyway, and had SCOTUS not intervened, we'd probably be pretty much where we are now anyway, except without all the rancor. it's amazing how important process can be in legitimizing the results!

Nearly 100% consensus: if a woman waits until the moment right at which the baby is born, killing it is murder or manslaughter.

nearly 100% consensus: life does not "start" at conception, life can only start at the earliest after a fertilized egg implants itself in the uterine wall. Akin's apparently bizarre statement (which I do not support) hinted at this: women might create stress hormones that eject the fertilized egg before it implants. You'd think then that he also would support the "morning after" pill / injection as well (when I was in college, the morning after certain campus events, you'd see a steady stream of young women heading toward the university health service for the injection, which was quietly available in the 1970s).

Then as you move from either end, either backward from birth (okay, killing a fetus which would be viable on its own outside the womb is tantamount to murder) or forward from implantation (suppose the egg does implant but insufficient cell division has yet occurred for the nascent life form to be recognizably human), more and more people drop out from either extreme until you reach a middle ground at which most people grudgingly compromise.

The widespread availability of ultrasound is probably the pro-life person's best friend; once you see that little heartbeat, the whole conversation moves dramatically from the abstract to the concrete.

I am certainly sympathetic to a woman who says "hey I don't want to be carrying that 'thing' around inside me." it's a real heart-breaking choice: "get rid of 'that thing' early? or subject it to years of child abuse later?"

Every woman I know who's had an abortion suffers regrets, even when they knew rationally it was the 'right thing to do.'

It's weird though how some men get so passionate about it. Unless it were my sperm involved, how much voice do I deserve to have in the decision?

 

[Foxton]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

The widespread availability of ultrasound is probably the pro-life person's best friend; once you see that little heartbeat, the whole conversation moves dramatically from the abstract to the concrete.

I am certainly sympathetic to a woman who says "hey I don't want to be carrying that 'thing' around inside me." it's a real heart-breaking choice: "get rid of 'that thing' early? or subject it to years of child abuse later?"

Congratulations, a heart beat means that the fetus has a circulatory system, doesn't make it any more of a child than having a functioning epidermis.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Congratulations, a heart beat means that the fetus has a circulatory system, doesn't make it any more of a child than having a functioning epidermis.

I take it you've never actually seen an ultrasound yourself in person that involves your own genetic material??


Well, you've managed to make it this far with a malfunctioning brain! what's your point?

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Yeah, but you've already established that you don't have a sense of humor, so you can save us all the Chick Tracts.

That particular cartoon is stupid hyperbole anyway. Obama is not running around the country with an OJ-sized knife, trying to cut the unborn out of every pregnant woman.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

That particular cartoon is stupid hyperbole anyway. Obama is not running around the country with an OJ-sized knife, trying to cut the unborn out of every pregnant woman.

Nope, he's carrying a vacuum cleaner with a long, narrow pointed tube on the end.

 

[Foxton]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

I take it you've never actually seen an ultrasound yourself in person that involves your own genetic material??


Well, you've managed to make it this far with a malfunctioning brain! what's your point?

Anything I could ever say is just devastated by your emotional appeal and personal testimony.

 

[ericredaxe]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

That's part of the baggage inherent in being pro-choice.

Not really, its just that some of us don't have the self-righteous belief that we alone are vested with moral wisdom.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

This is the part I struggle with:

“God creates life, and that was my point,” Mourdock said in a statement. “God does not want rape, and by no means was I suggesting that he does.”

So, God creates life but has nothing to do with the act that creates it?

That's a tough line of logic to follow.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Not really, its just that some of us don't have the self-righteous belief that we alone are vested with moral wisdom.

Yes, really. A pro-choice position pushes for abortion to be legal to at least some extent. Otherwise there wouldn't be a "choice."

 

[Rover]

This is the part I struggle with:



So, God creates life but has nothing to do with the act that creates it?

That's a tough line of logic to follow.

That's the problem with knuckledraggers. If you start ascribing stuff to "God's will" a lot of nasty things are happening under His watch. People who think they have God on speed dial and are thus soliciting His opinion on political policy make me nervous. That kind of arrogance tends to cause problems. I mean, if you thought God was endorsing your policies personally, wouldn't that make you a lot less willing to seek compromise with those who disagree with you?

 

[joecct]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

This just in. http://www.wtop.com/884/3091481/Oregon-scientists-make-embryos-with-2-women-1-man

We are now officially well on the slippery slope to 6565