Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

[bronconick]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

I really hope that demographic projections are correct and that the current Republican party will be marginalized and/or die out over the next 10-20 years.

One of these elections, their presidential candidate and some of their senate candidates will look at the numbers and de-emphasize immigration issues (especially since the party can't decide what really to do between people wanting the door slammed shut and everyone tossed out and their business interests wanting a steady supply) and start competing heavily for hispanics, who otherwise lean conservative.

The system encourages two strong parties. You might get two presidential elections with a regional party before someone steers it back to a national stage.

 

[ericredaxe]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

I really hope that demographic projections are correct and that the current Republican party will be marginalized and/or die out over the next 10-20 years.

Personally I would hope that they just move more to the center on social issues.

Maybe it's just the group that I associate with, but almost everyone I know seems to be somewhat liberal on social issues, and somewhat conservative on fiscal issues.... its surprising there isn't a party that represents this, as I would think that sentiment is pretty mainstream.

 

[Rover]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Sorta on subject, a new poll came out showing Mourdoch collapsing in the Indiana Senate race. One poll does not make a race, but I found it interesting that he released his own internals showing him down a point. I don't have a lot of faith in a campaign releasing its own polling less than a week before the election that still shows them down. I'm thinking this one leans Dem now. If both Akin and Mourdoch lose races that should have been layups, will the GOP change its stance on these issues?

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Maybe it's just the group that I associate with, but almost everyone I know seems to be somewhat liberal on social issues, and somewhat conservative on fiscal issues.... its surprising there isn't a party that represents this, as I would think that sentiment is pretty mainstream.

There used to be a faction in the Democratic party like that, 50 years ago. They've all been purged now, many people credit George McGovern with that shift.

The Democratic "Party" today isn't really a party, it's more like a loose coalition of single-issue voters (which is weird because that's what the Republican Party used to be).

It's really ironic, about 125 years ago populism was seen as a winning issue for Democrats while today populism is the winning issue for Republicans.

I imagine that's why intellectuals have such disdain for Fox: it is run as a populist network and intellectuals always disdain anything popular with the unwashed masses.

 

[ericredaxe]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

The Democratic "Party" today isn't really a party, it's more like a loose coalition of single-issue voters (which is weird because that's what the Republican Party used to be).

It's really ironic, about 125 years ago populism was seen as a winning issue for Democrats while today populism is the winning issue for Republicans.

I imagine that's why intellectuals have such disdain for Fox: it is run as a populist network and intellectuals always disdain anything popular with the unwashed masses.

I think there are plenty of single issue voters for both Republicans and Democrats.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Personally I would hope that they just move more to the center on social issues.

Maybe it's just the group that I associate with, but almost everyone I know seems to be somewhat liberal on social issues, and somewhat conservative on fiscal issues.... its surprising there isn't a party that represents this, as I would think that sentiment is pretty mainstream.

That's why I said "current Republican Party" when hoping that they would be marginalized and/or die out.

They've gone way too far right and I'm not seeing any strength from anyone in that party to move them back towards the middle anytime soon.

Like we've talked about before, need 4 parties:

Right
Center Right
Center Left
Left

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

I think there are plenty of single issue voters for both Republicans and Democrats.

There are no single issue Republican voters. They always have at least 3.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

There are no single issue Republican voters. They always have at least 3.

God, guns, 'n gays?

 

[Rover]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

I think saying people are liberal on social issues but conservative on fiscal issues leaves enough wiggle room to drive a truck through.

Liberal on social issues can mean abortion rights for rape victims for one person, but gay marriage support for another. Likewise, fiscal conservatism as in balancing the budget is something that yes most people are on board with. How you do that is the question and where the problems arise. I don't see a viable 3rd party alternative as the two major parties will simply shift with the prevailing winds to keep garnering votes. I'd also note 3rd party candidates tend to be a cult of personality more than anything else (Paul, Perot, Nader).

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

I think saying people are liberal on social issues but conservative on fiscal issues leaves enough wiggle room to drive a truck through.

Liberal on social issues can mean abortion rights for rape victims for one person, but gay marriage support for another. Likewise, fiscal conservatism as in balancing the budget is something that yes most people are on board with. How you do that is the question and where the problems arise. I don't see a viable 3rd party alternative as the two major parties will simply shift with the prevailing winds to keep garnering votes. I'd also note 3rd party candidates tend to be a cult of personality more than anything else (Paul, Perot, Nader).

Sure. Paul Ryan and Todd Akin want a national personhood law/amendment, whatever, while Mitt Romney just wants to sign anything that comes to his desk. There's a lot of nuance there.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

I think there are plenty of single issue voters for both Republicans and Democrats.

That may well be the case; I was referring more to the Party organizations than the people who vote for one or the other every two or four years and outside of that have no interest in politics.

After their drubbing in 2006, the Republicans did some soul-searching and came up with a theme (not that I like it or dislike it, for now I'm merely observing), you might call it "back to the future" as they recycled much of Reagan's principles of "right-sizing a government that's grown too big and intrusive" and providing economic incentives to promote economic growth. That kind of optimism resonates.

Obama had a great theme in "hope and change" and "post-partisan" but then he behaved exactly the opposite once in office. the only thing that united Democrats in '06 and '08 is that they were not Republicans.


They even purged Joe Lieberman in '06 (although he was Vice-Presidential candidate in '00!) over a single issue despite his broad range of affiliation with them on most issues.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Looks like this thread will be closing before next Tuesday.

I sure hope we get a new State Senator come Wednesday morning. Our current state senator has alienated everyone in Hartford, he is one of the most despised people in Connecticut! However, we have a blatantly gerrymandered district and the people who need to bring pictures of a ballot into the polling place with them so that they know which box to fill in with their crayons keep putting him back anyway.

(you think I am kidding? In several urban districts the Democrat committee people really do hand out pictorial instructions on how to vote a straight ticket. Very sad that the same people who continue to clamor for more money for education cannot recognize that they are turning out people who can barely read or add. No additional funding will fix that; only a change in methods will.)

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Obama had a great theme in "hope and change" and "post-partisan" but then he behaved exactly the opposite once in office.

I'm not sure how you would say that he behaved exactly the opposite. The biggest thing Obama did was Obamacare, where he spent countless months trying to work with Republicans and even used a Republican think-tank idea for the program. Now, I voted for Obama in '08 and have been sorely disappointed, but to say what you said here is just wrong.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

I'm not sure how you would say that he behaved exactly the opposite. The biggest thing Obama did was Obamacare, where he spent countless months trying to work with Republicans and even used a Republican think-tank idea for the program. Now, I voted for Obama in '08 and have been sorely disappointed, but to say what you said here is just wrong.

"Elections have consequences, Eric, and I won." Obama to Cantor when he dismissed Cantor's offer to work together.

I hardly would describe that as trying to "work with" Republicans!

or when he invited Ryan to a "conference" then lectured him in front of the national press without giving him a chance to speak?

I don't think I am wrong when I point out that these two statements are not at all an attempt to "work with" anyone. There's plenty of additional evidence to back what I said as well. Lecturing the SCOTUS during the State of the Union address, when they cannot respond? yeah, real classy.

Are you aware of Bob Woodward's new book? I think if you read it you'd have to admit that I am not wrong on this particular point.

In Obama’s first meeting with Democratic and Republican House and Senate leaders, just two weeks after his inauguration, he told the group that he wanted to hear everyone’s ideas and come to a bipartisan solution—words he had run his presidential platform on. He told those assembled, “If it works, we don’t care whose idea it is.” But the next day his tune changed when Rep. Eric Cantor, then House minority whip, passed out a draft of a potential economic recovery plan that essentially met only the Republican demands. After reading the one-page spread, the president responded: “I can go it alone but I want to come together. Look at the polls. The polls are pretty good for me right now.” He then told Cantor, “Elections have consequences and Eric, I won.” The president’s arrogance is described many times in the book as having a negative effect.

Obama’s initial impression of Rep. Paul Ryan’s famed “Path to Prosperity” budget plan was that it is “a dark view of America.” So he attacked the proposed plan head on. At his April 13, 2011, speech at George Washington University, Obama tore into the plan while Ryan sat just 25 feet away in the audience

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

"Elections have consequences, Eric, and we won."

And you disagree with that statement?

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

I'm not sure how you would say that he behaved exactly the opposite. The biggest thing Obama did was Obamacare, where he spent countless months trying to work with Republicans and even used a Republican think-tank idea for the program. Now, I voted for Obama in '08 and have been sorely disappointed, but to say what you said here is just wrong.

Agreed. Obama spent way too much time trying to gain consensus with Republican senators and reps who weren't interested it getting anything done on a bi-partisan basis. It was either 100% their way or forget it.

They intentionally stalled.

I was sorely disappointed in the Dems during those first two years as they were too chicken-**** to just pass their ideas if they couldn't get anyone to work with them and so nothing got done. Too afraid to be left holding the bag if the ideas didn't work.

The one thing I'll say for Republicans is that they believe in their ideas and will pass them if given the chance - whether I agree with those ideas or not or whether those ideas would be catastrophic to the nation or not.

They at least have the backbone to do it.

 

[bronconick]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Spent months and months negotiating with a Senate Minority Leader who said his primary goal was to make sure you were a one term president.

Smart move.

He would have had better luck negotiating recruiting limitations with Nick Saban.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

And you disagree with that statement?

I really like the tradition after a hockey playoff that the teams line up to shake hands.

It is really unusual for one person from the winning team to openly gloat at the other team's loss during that post-game ritual.

While it is technicaly a "true" statement, gloating is no way to evoke cooperation. Nor is openly insulting someone.

Cantor offered to work with Obama in early 2009, and Obama dismissed his offer. That was my point.

Ryan offered to work with Obama in 2009, and Obama deliberately embarrassed him in public. That was my point.

You said I was wrong on that point. I'm not.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

You said I was wrong on that point. I'm not.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Obama and the Dems spent a lot of political capital trying to work with Republicans. For you to overlook that just comes off as you appearing to be hyper-partisan...which I didn't think you were. I guess I was wrong.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Obama had a great theme in "hope and change" and "post-partisan" but then he behaved exactly the opposite once in office. the only thing that united Democrats in '06 and '08 is that they were not Republicans.

What planet are you living on? Name ONE compromise that Obama proposed that the Bone Man and Mitch would agree to. I'll give you a hint. The answer is nada.