ecac refs

[jmh]

Re: ecac refs

The league should be embarrassed after the spectacle in Albany this weekend. In the championship game alone, Cornell picked on almost every play, was constantly holding, in some cases tackling, Union players and the best part was at the end of the 2nd period when Colin Greening cross-checked a Union player 5 times in about 20 seconds to prevent him from getting back up on his skates. Ref looked right at it and didn't call it to the disbelief of all of us in the neutral SLU section. There was one game all weekend that wasn't a clutch / obstruction fest and it was the second semi-final on Friday.

Unless the league does something to recognize and fix this, they are going to have a really hard time filling the seats in Atlantic ****ty or any other place.

Yeah, but it's a penalty every time your saintly Saints breathe on an opponent, we know. Give it a rest already.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: ecac refs

Unless the league does something to recognize and fix this, they are going to have a really hard time filling the seats in Atlantic ****ty or any other place.

Awww, we'll miss you.

Cornell is one of the least penalized teams in the league and the country. Maybe your guys should just figure out what gets called and what doesn't? And no fair using the "inconsistency" canard - if it were inconsistent, then no team could figure it out, and that is clearly not the case.

 

[TimU]

Re: ecac refs

Without regard to any particular teams, I have to say I agree that the ECAC appears to have made a decision not to call most obstruction penalties. I see it in every game, whether or not my team is playing. The only one that gets called with any regularity is hooking, and even on that one the NHL is now ten times stricter than the ECAC. I go to a handful of Hockey East games every year, and I see a real difference in the way the games are played.

I think it hurts the quality of our league games, and I think it hurts our teams in non-conference and tournament play. I agree that if a team can figure out what's called and what isn't, they'll be more successful in conference play. I think that happens: it almost has to, it's human nature. But I don't think that helps the ECAC as a whole.

Edit: By the way, of all the uncalled penalties on Saturday night - and there were a lot - the ones that probably upset me the most were two hits from behind that sent Cornell players head-first into the boards.

 

[Got 6 Want More]

Re: ecac refs

Without regard to any particular teams, I have to say I agree that the ECAC appears to have made a decision not to call most obstruction penalties. I see it in every game, whether or not my team is playing. The only one that gets called with any regularity is hooking, and even on that one the NHL is now ten times stricter than the ECAC. I go to a handful of Hockey East games every year, and I see a real difference in the way the games are played.

I think it hurts the quality of our league games, and I think it hurts our teams in non-conference and tournament play. I agree that if a team can figure out what's called and what isn't, they'll be more successful in conference play. I think that happens: it almost has to, it's human nature. But I don't think that helps the ECAC as a whole.

Edit: By the way, of all the uncalled penalties on Saturday night - and there were a lot - the ones that probably upset me the most were two hits from behind that sent Cornell players head-first into the boards.

I am sure Cornell's status as least penalized has nothing to do with the fact their coach has been openly confrontational with the officiating in the league and has likely intimidated the refs. Further, Cornell is a team whose entire system is based on obstruction and picking. The refs don't have the courage to penalize a team based on their system, but suffice it to say, I will be shocked if Cornell goes anywhere in the NCAA's when it is non-league refs.

I also agree with Tim that it was not just Cornell. There were four games in Albany this past weekend and only one I would watch based on its ability to entertain. There were some cheap shots and inappropriate hits from every other team there many of which were not called.

The Cornell fans defensiveness is noted. Note: my team didn't play Cornell this weekend. If I really wanted to focus on injustices to my team I would be focusing on the 1 or 2 times SLU apparently scored against Union where there was no review (but the video shows pretty clearly at least one of them was a goal) and the spear by Yankovitch that the ref didn't see but called a slash on based on the player response that should have given Union a major penalty in the third. Instead I am trying to focus on the fact that the hockey in Albany (except one game) was not fun to watch. Much of what was and was not called in all four games left me in disbelief. Yeah, part of the problem is that the systems played by three teams in Albany all employ a form of trapping, and I would have preferred to have had a team like Yale or RPI there that opens it up a bit more than Brown or Cornell does. Guess what, the NJ Devils are one of the most successful franchises in the NHL over the last 15 years too, but their attendance is dwindling and if that is the only team playing on TV, I'd rather watch Seinfeld reruns. At the same time, I believe the new emphasis on obstruction calls in the NHL is why more exciting, skill teams such as Pittsburgh and Washington are doing damage now. Perhaps, some of you ought to shed your red colored glasses and realize other than the jubilation of watching your team win the ECAC championship which is a great achievement, that the quality of entertainment and officiating in Albany was not great.

 

[jmh]

Re: ecac refs

The Cornell fans defensiveness is noted.

We're not defensive, we're TIRED OF YOUR WHINING.

 

[Got 6 Want More]

Re: ecac refs

We're not defensive, we're TIRED OF YOUR WHINING.

Give me a break. With the draft picks and talent Cornell recruits every year, you should be destroying teams instead of finishing second in the league to a fast, skilled team.

I am conveying to you the comments of everyone seated near me on Friday and Saturday night. You were not there, were you? It was not good hockey.

If it is any consolation though, some of us are growing tired of your pompousness!

 

[DisplacedCornellian]

Re: ecac refs

We're not defensive, we're TIRED OF YOUR WHINING.

This. Although, to be fair, at this point it's kind of funny. SLU lose a game? You can be sure Got6 is blaming the refs. Thread about the refs? You can be sure Got6 is there. Somebody mention the ecac refs off hand? You can be sure, somewhere, Got6 just started drooling.

 

[Kepler]

Re: ecac refs

Edit: By the way, of all the uncalled penalties on Saturday night - and there were a lot - the ones that probably upset me the most were two hits from behind that sent Cornell players head-first into the boards.

The only two calls that bothered me all weekend were two hits like this that were apparently deliberately not called, because each time the ref was positioned perfectly. They were both in the Cornell-Brown SF, but each team had one against the other. In both cases they weren't "dirty" -- you could see they were awkward mistakes by everybody involved -- but the letter of the law is they should have each been called.

I think the level of officiating has significantly improved in the ECAC over the last 5 years. John Gallagher wouldn't get a job holding these guys' jocks. It certainly waxes and wanes as far as the "tightness" of the call goes -- three years ago you couldn't breath on a guy without getting an "obstruction, randomly chosen second word" call, now it's evened out again. But the talent is better.

 

[Got 6 Want More]

Re: ecac refs

This. Although, to be fair, at this point it's kind of funny. SLU lose a game? You can be sure Got6 is blaming the refs. Thread about the refs? You can be sure Got6 is there. Somebody mention the ecac refs off hand? You can be sure, somewhere, Got6 just started drooling.

And right behind Got 6, is Displaced Cornellian with another neg rep....all for pointing out the same thing their head coach has been suspended for *****ing about more than once. I am not sure which is more tiresome actually, watching obstruction laced ECAC hockey or the hypocrisy of some specific fans. Was it just me or was Schafer yelling at the refs every other minute on Saturday night??

 

[Got 6 Want More]

Re: ecac refs

The only two calls that bothered me all weekend were two hits like this that were apparently deliberately not called, because each time the ref was positioned perfectly. They were both in the Cornell-Brown SF, but each team had one against the other. In both cases they weren't "dirty" -- you could see they were awkward mistakes by everybody involved -- but the letter of the law is they should have each been called.

I think the level of officiating has significantly improved in the ECAC over the last 5 years. John Gallagher wouldn't get a job holding these guys' jocks. It certainly waxes and wanes as far as the "tightness" of the call goes -- three years ago you couldn't breath on a guy without getting an "obstruction, randomly chosen second word" call, now it's evened out again. But the talent is better.

There were several non calls in the Cornell - Union game as well. We were opposite the bench on the end of the ice Union defended twice.

I don't know how you can say it is better talent as, in reality, it is the same talent. And, possibly, you missed the argument but it is NOT a good thing that they are not calling obstruction calls because it is slowing down the game, taking away scoring chances, and under the letter of the law these things should be called. If not, why the **** are they in the rule book. Brown trapped all weekend. Cornell played their system. SLU wasn't even trapping on the PK as half their best scoring chances this weekend were man down. I won't even hit on the missed icings and offsides. In the Brown - SLU Con-so-ugly game, Patry kept looking up at the clock instead of the line and missed offsides call after call. These are the same guys we had 5 years ogo...Feola, Kotyra, Dell, Murphy, etc. It is not a good thing to let them play, if the letting them play involves continuous infractions of rules designed to keep the games fast and exciting.

 

[MarkEagleUSA]

Re: ecac refs

Let's face it... there were bad calls and non-calls against all 4 teams in all 4 games this weekend. I witnessed the same thing during Q's Dartmouth and Union series as well. In fact, QU had inconsistent officiating all season from our esteemed ECAC refs.

The key word here is inconsistent. I wouldn't mind some of the calls that are made as long as they're called both ways. What's good for one team has to be good for the other, right? How else are the players supposed to know what they can and can't do and what the boundaries are?

I think we can all agree that, at a minimum, ECAC officiating is anything but consistent.

 

[jmh]

Re: ecac refs

Give me a break. With the draft picks and talent Cornell recruits every year, you should be destroying teams instead of finishing second in the league to a fast, skilled team.

I am conveying to you the comments of everyone seated near me on Friday and Saturday night. You were not there, were you? It was not good hockey.

If it is any consolation though, some of us are growing tired of your pompousness!

A) Cornell does destroy teams. Union didn't have any sustained pressure during the whole championship game, for example. Yale's a good team and the fact that they finished ahead of Cornell speaks to the fact that they're doing something right, not that Cornell is doing something wrong. (Cornell has, what, six of the ECAC's seven most recent wins in the NCAA tournament? Would that really be true if they weren't using their talent correctly?)
B) I was there, and I thought it was just perfectly good hockey, though I'm obviously biased by the fact that I got to celebrate a victory on Saturday night.
C) Being tired of your whining makes me pompous? I don't think you know what that word means.

And right behind Got 6, is Displaced Cornellian with another neg rep....all for pointing out the same thing their head coach has been suspended for *****ing about more than once. I am not sure which is more tiresome actually, watching obstruction laced ECAC hockey or the hypocrisy of some specific fans.

How about making fun of DisplacedCornellian for sending you negative rep when you did the same thing to me earlier today? Does that count as hypocrisy?

 

[Got 6 Want More]

Re: ecac refs

A) Cornell does destroy teams. Union didn't have any sustained pressure during the whole championship game, for example. Yale's a good team and the fact that they finished ahead of Cornell speaks to the fact that they're doing something right, not that Cornell is doing something wrong. (Cornell has, what, six of the ECAC's seven most recent wins in the NCAA tournament? Would that really be true if they weren't using their talent correctly?)
B) I was there, and I thought it was just perfectly good hockey, though I'm obviously biased by the fact that I got to celebrate a victory on Saturday night.
C) Being tired of your whining makes me pompous? I don't think you know what that word means.How about making fun of DisplacedCornellian for sending you negative rep when you did the same thing to me earlier today? Does that count as hypocrisy?

For one thing Union played their better game on Friday night and I don't think was prepared for what it takes to win on Saturday night. Cornell was clearly the stronger and dominant team, but don't you think that the fact Cornell's first two goals were on PP's that were weak calls compared to what went on all weekend....including too many men on the ice by Cornell at least twice in that game? Union did have some sustained pressure in the last two minutes when they finally played with some desperation. I am not sure of your definition of destroying teams either considering you outshot the competition this past weekend by what? 5 shots? over two games?? As I said, no question at all who was the stronger team but on paper Union shouldn't have even been on the same ice as a team with that many draft picks and blue chip recruits. Or, when Cornell plays speed / skill teams such as UND or Yale, they take twice as many penalties (as Yale) and get outshot 26-16 or 54-20 respectively. If not for Scrivens, what would the scores have been?

So, Cornell does have some wins. Their best run was in 2006 which ended against Wisconsin. Some of that has to do with Cornell has been in the tourney every year but has rarely got more than one win in any year. Go ahead and make a believer by beating UNH with neutral officiating. I don't see that as likely unless Scrivens stands on his head, and it really doesn't address the core issue which is the style and quality of play and officiating in the ECAC which was not entertaining this weekend. Both games from Yale last year were far more entertaining.

Yes, you are obviously biased but not necessarily because your team one. Even the Albany Times Union talked about how the SLU-Union semi-final was a much more entertaining game. The other semi-finalt was a traptastic snoozefest and both games on Saturday were awful (for different reasons).

Finally, no, implying that I don't have a valid opinion makes you pompous and whining about my whining makes you a hypocrit. I didn't attack you personally and you did and you deserved neg rep on that basis. DC has been neg repping me on a monthly basis all season. You guys are entitled to your opinion, but a) I am not the only one saying this (although maybe I am saying it more directly) and b) as a neutral observer for the championship game the chances of me paying $48 plus hotel and transportation to watch that hockey again is slim. Compare that to the NCAA's in Manchester last year and it is not even close. Heck, even one of your posters who I generally respect (Kepler) talked about inconsistency and a lack of obstruction calls now compared to a few years ago. Has Cornell changed their system in the last three years and ceased obstructing and picking or are the refs just not calling it anymore? And just so you don't think I am being hypocritcal go back and read my comments from the SLU-Clarkson series where I was troubled by some of the penalties SLU took that were not called....I think refs have to protect players and there were some liberties taken (both ways) in that series. Or go back further to when RPI was at SLU in November where I lamented the fact that SLU won on a PP which was the result of an awful call by the ref on RPI's Brutlag. I spent years watching the Seattle Thunderbirds in the WHL and the quality of the officiating was 100 times better than what we get in the ECAC.

Finally, yes, I also have a deep bias towards skating / skill teams such as Yale, SLU, Harvard (most years) and RPI (this year at least). I would say Union but they are somewhere more in the middle. Unlike most in my section on Saturday night I came in pretty much rooting for Cornell and the refs changed that because I don't think they gave Union the fair shake they deserved.

I didn't intend to make this about Cornell, my point was originally about the lack of obstruction calls all weekend where there should have been. But, the team that benefitted from it most was Cornell and since it is only Cornell fans trying to argue that ECAC refs are not brutal and inconsistent, so be it.

 

[Kepler]

Re: ecac refs

It is not a good thing to let them play, if the letting them play involves continuous infractions of rules designed to keep the games fast and exciting.

I don't agree that's what's happening in this case, but I do agree with this sentence. Nothing's more irritating than announcers blubbing "let the players decide the game." Calling penalties isn't what decides a game with a ppg -- it's taking the penalty that does it.

And I'm old, so my time frame for the improvement may be 10 years -- I remember guys like Gallagher, Gallipeau, the Murphy who wasn't John, who used to be in the league and seemed (at least to a less kind and gentle observer) to blow.

 

[hockeyguy]

Re: ecac refs

Hey

I was reading that Paul Stewart host open tryouts for offcials. If everyone is so good at refereeing and can skate the pace of the game. I say go out and prove yourselves.

I know I couldn't do it, but the rest of you guys sound like you could be the next bill McCreary.

I say go out and prove all the crap that you all talk. It is a mentaly and phsyicaly draining position where you never win, no matter what you call.

I WOULD NOT WANT TO DO IT!!!!!!!!!

 

[DisplacedCornellian]

Re: ecac refs

I am not sure of your definition of destroying teams either considering you outshot the competition this past weekend by what? 5 shots? over two games??

Looking at actual scoring chances or time spent in each zone instead of the number of shots might give you a better idea. Cornell is not a team that is going to put up huge shot totals, just because they don't fire the puck at the net willy nilly.

Or, when Cornell plays speed / skill teams such as UND or Yale, they take twice as many penalties (as Yale)

You're basing this on what exactly? One box score from a Yale game where Cornell took 5 penalties to Yale's 2? Both NoDak games saw NoDak taking more penalties, and the earlier game against Yale saw 8 minors on both teams. But don't let facts get in the way.

Go ahead and make a believer by beating UNH with neutral officiating.

You mean like they did in January at UNH?

I didn't intend to make this about Cornell, my point was originally about the lack of obstruction calls all weekend where there should have been.

Really? Because your original post about this weekend was exclusively about Cornell.

 

[Got 6 Want More]

Re: ecac refs

Looking at actual scoring chances or time spent in each zone instead of the number of shots might give you a better idea. Cornell is not a team that is going to put up huge shot totals, just because they don't fire the puck at the net willy nilly. .

Right, so they intentionally wait for the perfect shot? Or maybe, they don't take a lot of shots because they play the game along the boards?

You're basing this on what exactly? One box score from a Yale game where Cornell took 5 penalties to Yale's 2? Both NoDak games saw NoDak taking more penalties, and the earlier game against Yale saw 8 minors on both teams. But don't let facts get in the way.

You are referring to what was called, I was referring to what I saw actually happen in the games on TV. In those four games, Cornell was, what, 1 and 3? Most thought UND outplayed Cornell in the game that Cornell did win. Cornell also lost to a middle of the pack CC team. Yes, they beat UNH when UNH was not playing particularly well, but Cornell's record against skill / speed teams is not good and that supports the point several have made which is the style of play is successful in the ECAC because the refs don't call what they should and hurts the league overall. 6500 in Albany versus full houses in Boston and the WCHA.

You mean like they did in January at UNH?

Sure. UNH is an up and down team and you got them when they were down. If somehow Cornell gets by UNH my guess is it will be the result of Scrivens and I'll bet my good kidney that they won't be DU. I believe Yale was much more capable of a deeper run before Backman got injured.

Really? Because your original post about this weekend was exclusively about Cornell.

Was it really? I mentioned there being one game all weekend that was decent. Wasn't aware that Cornell played in the other three? The sequence where Greening just sat there and cross-checked the Union player 10 feet in front of Kotyra is absurd. It was a poster child cross-check which is a penalty. Not one, five. The non-calls make a mockery of the rulebook and the league. If it had been an SLU, Union or Brown player I would have been saying the same thing.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: ecac refs

Right, so they intentionally wait for the perfect shot? Or maybe, they don't take a lot of shots because they play the game along the boards?

Combination of both. Cornell likes to possess the puck, preferably deep in the offensive zone. If it leads to a good shot, fine, but if not - well, not many bad things can happen when you're doing that!

6500 in Albany versus full houses in Boston and the WCHA [because of what ECAC refs call and don't call].

You're kidding, right? On the list of "reasons why the HEA finals in FREAKING BOSTON outdraw the ECAC in Albany" I'd put ECAC officiating at, oh, I don't know, perhaps 478th on the list.

I believe Yale was much more capable of a deeper run before Backman got injured.

Yes. All one has to do is look at recent results to know that Cornell is completely useless when it comes to the NCAA tournament while the rest of the league shines like a beacon. Great point.

 

[DisplacedCornellian]

Re: ecac refs

Yes, they beat UNH when UNH was not playing particularly well, but Cornell's record against skill / speed teams is not good and that supports the point several have made which is the style of play is successful in the ECAC because the refs don't call what they should and hurts the league overall.

If Cornell received more penalties for obstruction and the like in non-conference games than they do in ECAC competition, it would support the point that the style of play is successful in the ECAC because of the refs. But they don't. I suppose the refs in all of the leagues may be equally incompetent...but that wasn't your point.

What Cornell's record against skilled/speedy team shows is that other conferences have deeper, more talented rosters. Real shocker there, I know. Given recent results, and the "success" other ECAC teams have had in OOC games and the NCAA tournament in the past decade or so, that's pretty clear. When was the last time an ECAC team besides Cornell won a game in the NCAA tournament? I don't think the "skill/speed" teams of the ECAC have done any better. You'd think they would without the ECAC refs holding them back.

Anyway, we've beaten this point to death. Back to bashing the incompetent officials of the ECAC!

 

[Got 6 Want More]

Re: ecac refs

If Cornell received more penalties for obstruction and the like in non-conference games than they do in ECAC competition, it would support the point that the style of play is successful in the ECAC because of the refs. But they don't. I suppose the refs in all of the leagues may be equally incompetent...but that wasn't your point.

What Cornell's record against skilled/speedy team shows is that other conferences have deeper, more talented rosters. Real shocker there, I know. Given recent results, and the "success" other ECAC teams have had in OOC games and the NCAA tournament in the past decade or so, that's pretty clear. When was the last time an ECAC team besides Cornell won a game in the NCAA tournament? I don't think the "skill/speed" teams of the ECAC have done any better. You'd think they would without the ECAC refs holding them back.

Anyway, we've beaten this point to death. Back to bashing the incompetent officials of the ECAC!

Fine, let's look at your games against Princeton this year. In the league games shots were essentially even and penalties were even in one game and more to Cornell in the other game. However, with non-ECAC refs in Estero, Princeton heavily outshot Cornell and Cornell took about twice as many penalties. There is no way to argue Princeton is a deeper team.

As for doing damage in the NCAA's, teams have to make it before they can win. Yale and Princeton both disappointed last year. Princeton ran into a hot goalie and essentially choked. Yale's problem has been they don't have a goalie that can take them anywhere. However, even lowly SLU picked to finish 10th in the league this year managed to help your PWR with wins over BC, RIT, Yale, and going back a few years there have been wins against teams like Wisconsin when Wisconsin started 20-1 but SLU took them to OT twice and won once.

It may be reason 487 that Albany sucks, but several of us walked away from the tourney this year annoyed at the quality of play and the amount of blatant obstruction penalties most of which went uncalled. It was not entertaining hockey. Many of us go whether our team is there or not, but after this years snoozefest I doubt that will continue.

Finally, I disagree that Cornell has anything to complain about with regards to depth and talent. How many draft picks have you had over the past five seasons (some of them quite high). It may not be a factory like BC, DU, but it is certainly in the elite in the NCAA in terms of attracting blue chip talent. And I repeat, I never said the Cornell recipe is not successful winning games, but I think it is unsuccessful at winning fans or winning more than one ot two games in the NCAA's.

I wish you guys luck in Albany. It will be a big surprise if anyone other than Denver heads to the Frozen Four. If I go anywhere, it will be to Worcester where there are more entertaining teams.