Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

[dreamer6]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Here's an idea. Ridiculous, never gonna happen, but it's an idea:

ECAC-East boots the DIIs.

If a vote to allow the DII games to count was passed would you still want to boot them or is there another reason you would like them out? I thought they were two pretty decent programs?

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Blame RIT

It's always RIT's fault. ALWAYS!

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

If a vote to allow the DII games to count was passed would you still want to boot them or is there another reason you would like them out? I thought they were two pretty decent programs?

if the games counted, absolutely let them stay. They are decent programs, with a potential to be better if they were ever allowed to participate in a NC tournament. The reason I say boot them is that i doubt the ECAC-W teams would be willing to sign on for such an arrangement that would replace 2 games against a top program in their own conference with 2 games that won't count. And in my utterly ridiculous scenario, tell me a viable scheduling format for a 13-team league in which everybody plays everybody, AND has more than 1 or 2 OOC games, without having so many they are forced to schedule more games against conference opponents. I'm fairly certain there isn't one, but please let me know if I'm wrong.

If the games were to count, which I am still in doubt about, then it would be stupid of the ECAC-E to kick them out. But so long as the games don't count, it is far more beneficial to kick them out (especially when one considers that, unless another interlock is formed, ECAC-E teams would be play 4 non-counting games.

 

[The Real Georgia Peach]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Let's REALLY think outside the box.....drop the ECAC-E, NE, and W and just have Div III ECAC...21 teams (Div II teams go away), play each member once and have 5 games available for OOC. ECAC tournament of top 8, leaving 4 (I think) Pool C & B spots to fill out the 11 team NCAA tournament. Flame away...

 

[NUProf]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Let's REALLY think outside the box.....drop the ECAC-E, NE, and W and just have Div III ECAC...21 teams (Div II teams go away), play each member once and have 5 games available for OOC. ECAC tournament of top 8, leaving 4 (I think) Pool C & B spots to fill out the 11 team NCAA tournament. Flame away...

Not horrible, but the NE schools wouldn't like it - most of them are allergic to overnight trips.

 

[PuckVoice]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

My two cents ...

Three Seven Team ECAC Leagues ...

ECAC Southwest
Utica
Neumann
Manhattanville
Hobart
Elmira
Western New England
Skidmore

ECAC New England
Castleton
New England College
Norwich
Southern Maine
University of New England
Johnson & Wales
Salve Regina

ECAC Greater Boston
Wentworth
Suffolk
Nichols
Babson
UMass-Boston
Becker
Curry

Each team plays the six other teams in its league twice ... 12 games
Each Team Plays Four of the teams from each of the other leagues once
(Opponents rotate year to year) .................................. 8 games
Five other Out of Conference Games ............................. 5 games

Six teams from each league make playoffs ... one does not
Top two get byes into semi-finals

Still three autobids

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Let's REALLY think outside the box.....drop the ECAC-E, NE, and W and just have Div III ECAC...21 teams (Div II teams go away), play each member once and have 5 games available for OOC. ECAC tournament of top 8, leaving 4 (I think) Pool C & B spots to fill out the 11 team NCAA tournament. Flame away...

8/21 making playoffs? That would be, by FAR, the lowest percentage in postseason play of any conference. They'd be the only conference to have less than half. I can think of several reasons why a good portion of these schools would never go for this idea.

My two cents ...

Three Seven Team ECAC Leagues ...

ECAC Southwest
Utica
Neumann
Manhattanville
Hobart
Elmira
Western New England
Skidmore

ECAC New England
Castleton
New England College
Norwich
Southern Maine
University of New England
Johnson & Wales
Salve Regina

ECAC Greater Boston
Wentworth
Suffolk
Nichols
Babson
UMass-Boston
Becker
Curry

Each team plays the six other teams in its league twice ... 12 games
Each Team Plays Four of the teams from each of the other leagues once
(Opponents rotate year to year) .................................. 8 games
Five other Out of Conference Games ............................. 5 games

Six teams from each league make playoffs ... one does not
Top two get byes into semi-finals

Still three autobids

DING! DING! DING!

We have a winner!

This is, far and away, the most logical option that would A) save the ECAC-W, B) leave everybody with an autobid to play for, and C) be agreeable to almost all. Some of the Northeasts would still be opposed to those overnight trips out west, but I'm sure they could be convinced if you told them it would not be an annual thing.

However: It's the logical solution. This is DIII. Those two facts are very rarely compatible. This would, far and away, be the best solution. But it will never happen, and the roadblocks would likely be:

1. The ECAC-NE teams, pretty much as a whole. I mean, this goes against pretty much all of the reasons they created that **** conference.

2. Skidmore and WNEC not wanting to move to the West (err... "southwest"). Skidmore moving to the conference has been suggested many times before, but they are philosophically more in line with the ECAC-E, and their real rivalries are in the ECAC-E. Any idea that takes them out of playing the ECAC-E teams annually would likely not fly with them.

It's important to note that, while all of our ideas are focused on what's best for DIII hockey, it is not the hockey teams that decide these things. It is the presidents of the schools, and the Athletic directors. For many of these schools where hockey is not the big sport on campus, it is likely that they will reject such proposals simply to keep their jobs simple. Sad, but true.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

I've started a poll pertaining to this discussion, because I'm curious to see what the consensus is.

 

[3rdLiner]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

My two cents ...

Three Seven Team ECAC Leagues ...

ECAC Southwest
Utica
Neumann
Manhattanville
Hobart
Elmira
Western New England
Skidmore

ECAC New England
Castleton
New England College
Norwich
Southern Maine
University of New England
Johnson & Wales
Salve Regina

ECAC Greater Boston
Wentworth
Suffolk
Nichols
Babson
UMass-Boston
Becker
Curry

Each team plays the six other teams in its league twice ... 12 games
Each Team Plays Four of the teams from each of the other leagues once
(Opponents rotate year to year) .................................. 8 games
Five other Out of Conference Games ............................. 5 games

Six teams from each league make playoffs ... one does not
Top two get byes into semi-finals

Still three autobids

I like it!!!
I would sign up for this in a heart beat. The opposition would be limited to a few school and do to the #s you would need those teams, but could we add the DII teams one or two per league? Or does that ruin the math?

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

I like it!!!
I would sign up for this in a heart beat. The opposition would be limited to a few school and do to the #s you would need those teams, but could we add the DII teams one or two per league? Or does that ruin the math?

The issue here is that the two roadblocks I mentioned above (majority of ECAC-NE not wanting this, and Skidmore not wanting to move) would be enough to keep this from happening. The ECAC cannot impose this from above, the conference members would have to agree to this. More importantly, the Conference members would have to agree to this on a conference-by-conference basis. If even 5 of the ECAC-NE teams said no, it wouldn't much matter that 15 teams (all the ECAC-W, All DIIIs in ECAC-E except Skidmore) said yes. This plan would fail if the majority of even one involved existing conference rejected it.

Also, they cannot force Skidmore and WNEC to move. If they say no, it doesn't happen. I mean, their conferences could kick them out and thell them that the ECAC-W is the only place they are welcome, but that could have a worse result: the folding of 2 programs. Honestly, I don't see either of those 2 teams being competitive in the ECAC-W which is consistently a far tougher conference than either of the other 2 ECACs (let's be honest about that). So, even if they did agree to move, there is a good chance they could go the way of LVC in a few short years, and we'd back to square 1 with the ECAC-W.

The DIIs might ruin the math, or they might not, I haven't really looked at it. But they don't count toward the 7 for an AQ, never forget that when looking at realignment.


EDIT: Let me make this clear - I am am in full support of any conference realignment that either ensures all ECAC conferences an AQ or ensures the continuation of Pool B, with a preference towards the former. However, I just don't see it happening in the near future... and I'm not sure the ECAC-W can wait that long.

 

[hawk]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

8/21 making playoffs? That would be, by FAR, the lowest percentage in postseason play of any conference. They'd be the only conference to have less than half. I can think of several reasons why a good portion of these schools would never go for this idea.




DING! DING! DING!

We have a winner!

This is, far and away, the most logical option that would A) save the ECAC-W, B) leave everybody with an autobid to play for, and C) be agreeable to almost all. Some of the Northeasts would still be opposed to those overnight trips out west, but I'm sure they could be convinced if you told them it would not be an annual thing.

However: It's the logical solution. This is DIII. Those two facts are very rarely compatible. This would, far and away, be the best solution. But it will never happen, and the roadblocks would likely be:

1. The ECAC-NE teams, pretty much as a whole. I mean, this goes against pretty much all of the reasons they created that **** conference.

2. Skidmore and WNEC not wanting to move to the West (err... "southwest"). Skidmore moving to the conference has been suggested many times before, but they are philosophically more in line with the ECAC-E, and their real rivalries are in the ECAC-E. Any idea that takes them out of playing the ECAC-E teams annually would likely not fly with them.

It's important to note that, while all of our ideas are focused on what's best for DIII hockey, it is not the hockey teams that decide these things. It is the presidents of the schools, and the Athletic directors. For many of these schools where hockey is not the big sport on campus, it is likely that they will reject such proposals simply to keep their jobs simple. Sad, but true.

Maybe I am missing something but I always thought the ECAC East and NESCAC have always been considered much more competitive than the ECAC Northeast and now the MASCAC. Just look how Justin Foxx bolted for Oswego the monent Salem droped out of the East. No insider knowledge but I believe Norwich and the other ECAC E teams will will be looking to make the league even stronger with the restructure if it comes. At least I hope so. Most of the ECAC East teams are very serious and competitive about there hockey program and adding some very weak Northeast teams would not be popular. I am somewhat surprised that word of how the whole mess is going to be restructure has not leaked yet because I can not see the East setting around waiting for the NESCAC break there schedule up.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Maybe I am missing something but I always thought the ECAC East and NESCAC have always been considered much more competitive than the ECAC Northeast and now the MASCAC. Just look how Justin Foxx bolted for Oswego the monent Salem droped out of the East.

Yes, the ECAC-E and NESCAC are far more competitive than the ECAC-NE and MASCAC. I will also qualify my earlier statement that the ECAC-W is the most competitive of the ECAC conferences by saying that is is the most competitive top-to-botom. There are some real powderpuffs in the ECAC-E, no offense. But yes, the presence of that top echelon in the conference means that this conference is far more competitive than the Northeast or MASCAC.

No insider knowledge but I believe Norwich and the other ECAC E teams will will be looking to make the league even stronger with the restructure if it comes. At least I hope so.

I would also hope they'd want to make the conference stronger. The 3-league idea Puck Voice suggested would actually do that, by introducing the ECAC-W in as part of the conference schedule (I'm assuming he meant the 4 games per year against rotating opponents from the other conferences to be a sort of partial interlocking schedule). Yes, the Northeast teams would bring it down a bit, but I think the net result would be a strengthening of all 3 conferences.

Most of the ECAC East teams are very serious and competitive about there hockey program and adding some very weak Northeast teams would not be popular.

As I've said before, it would also be very unpopular amongst the ECAC-NE teams. Remember the reasons they created the conference:
Similar scheduling capabilities (given that very few, if any, actually have primary occupancy of their rinks).
Similar level of competition (For the most part, Average at best).
And Geographic Proximity (as NUProf stated earlier, most would prefer to have 0 overnight trips. realignment would cause them all to have multiple each year).

Realignment violates all of those reasons for creating the conference. Why on Earth would they ever agree to it?

I am somewhat surprised that word of how the whole mess is going to be restructure has not leaked yet because I can not see the East setting around waiting for the NESCAC break there schedule up.

The Interlock, if it is cancelled by the NESCAC, will still be in effect this upcoming season, giving the ECAC-E another year to figure things out. If there is going to be realignment, it will most likely be announced toward the end of the season, if not early in the next offseason. But it's not even really known if realignment is being considered by either the ECAC-E or the ECAC-NE. We're really just speculating here. I think the ECAC-E is planning on just doing home-and-homes within the conference (which is a cause for concern for the DIIs, because who wants to play 4 non-counting games in a season?).

Obviously, as has been stated many times, another model that work is simply for the ECAC-E to boot the DIIs, take Curry and Wenworth, both of whom have expressed interest in such a move in recent years, and leave the ECAC-NE with 6 teams. Does this screw the ECAC-NE? Certainly. But it partially solves the problem with the ECAC-W, because Pool B would be here to stay

 

[joecct]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Cards makes some very good arguments against PuckVoice's excellent presentation.

I still think if the interlock ends:
(a) The D-II schools in the ECAC-E get the boot and join the NE10
(b) USM and UM-B are jumping to the MASCAC (due to the Little East / MASCAC conference sharing)
(c) Curry gets the invite to join the East to keep the East AQ.

When the prelim round is done, you end up with
10 NESCAC -- AQ
9 MASCAC -- AQ
9 SUNYAC -- AQ
7 ECAC-E -- AQ
7 ECAC-NE -- AQ
5 ECAC-W -- Pool C eligible
-----
6 NE-10

Now what?
Everyone looks OK except the ECAC-W which needs 2 more members to get to AQ status. Given Card's telling points, I don't think anyone is looking to change conferences to get them the AQ.

The ECAC-W is rolling the dice every year hoping that one of their teams qualify for 1/3 Pool C bids. Another season like last and they'd be SOL come NCAA time -- not something that their coaches or <strike>players</strike> student-athletes would want.

So what could be done?? Given that the MASCAC and ECAC-NE are cost containment leagues, and only 3 / 16 teams control their own rinks, they're not going for overnights and cannot guarentee the rinks for Friday / Saturday games. So let's leave them out of the discussion...

Which leaves the SUNYAC... For $2,000, each ECAC-W school can apply to the SUNYAC for associate member status (Section 7 of the SUNYAC Constitution). If all 5 ECAC-W schools are accepted, then the SUNYAC becomes an unwieldy 14 teams that will need to be split out into a 7/7 North/South or East/West divisional arrangement for scheduling purposes. I leave it to the SUNY experts to divide the 14 teams geographically and work out a regular and post season schedule.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Cards makes some very good arguments against PuckVoice's excellent presentation.

I still think if the interlock ends:
(a) The D-II schools in the ECAC-E get the boot and join the NE10
(b) USM and UM-B are jumping to the MASCAC (due to the Little East / MASCAC conference sharing)
(c) Curry gets the invite to join the East to keep the East AQ.

I totally forgot the Little East/MASCAC thing... Yeah, this part probably will happen. In fact, I'm going to go so far as to say THIS WILL HAPPEN.

Which leaves the SUNYAC... For $2,000, each ECAC-W school can apply to the SUNYAC for associate member status (Section 7 of the SUNYAC Constitution). If all 5 ECAC-W schools are accepted, then the SUNYAC becomes an unwieldy 14 teams that will need to be split out into a 7/7 North/South or East/West divisional arrangement for scheduling purposes. I leave it to the SUNY experts to divide the 14 teams geographically and work out a regular and post season schedule.

This intrigues me. Last thing in the world Coach Emery would want, but Plattsburgh is only one of 10 votes on this matter (Morrisville would not get a vote, but Oneonta and New Paltz would)

EDIT: Morrisville does not get a vote in the Governing Body's initial decision to consider the membership application or not, but they likely WOULD get a vote in the final decision, since Article 1, Section 7, subsection K states that Associate Members receive a vote only in matters directly pertaining to the sport(s) for which they are approved, but cannot be a part of the governing body.

Here's the Section you cite:

Section 7. Associate Members

A. Associate Members shall be members who participate in certain, but not all, conference sports.
B. An institution that has been a full member of the Conference and seeks inclusion as an associate member must not have been a member of the Conference for a minimum of four years before seeking such status.
C. Any institution satisfying Article III, section 1 requesting associate membership in the Conference shall send to the Commissioner a written notice, a completed application and a non-refundable application fee of $2,000 seeking such admission.
...​

Section 7 continues on with the procedures behind this process, but that's the key part to our discussion. Now, the question is, are they "institutions satisfying Article III, section 1"

Well, let's see:

Section 1. Conference Eligibility Requirements

A. An institution for membership to the SUNYAC must be an active member of the NCAA Division III for a minimum of two years before applying for membership in SUNYAC.
B. Members must be a four-year baccalaureate degree granting institution.
C. Members must meet all NCAA Division III sport sponsorship requirements and be members in good standing of NCAA Division III.
D. Member institutions are required to participate in all sports for which they sponsor teams and for which the Conference sponsors competition.​

I know it sounds revolutionary... but nowhere does the SUNYAC Constitution limit membership to institutions within the SUNY system (or even the State of NY, for that matter)



EDIT: Further on in Section 7, it states that associate members must pay 20% of the annual dues that they would be charged were they full members. Would these schools be willing to pay that annually to have a conference for one team?

 

[hockeyfan77]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

USM is not jumping to the MASCAC...I am 99 % sure on this one...I have asked people in the know and this is not an option that appeals to USM...They would be one of the only teams in the league to have their own rink and are not willing to play on weekdays like the MASCAC does(academic issues)...Also, it would hurt USM recruiting in the long run..I have no idea about UMB but USM is NOT moving...Plus, they just got a great travel partner in UNE (20 minutes away ) so it makes little sense...

 

[hawk]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Another angle in the restructure of the ECAC East would be to drop St. Mike's and keep St. A's. Reason they maintain the same number of D2 games that they have now and keep a quality program in the East. St. A's and NEC are also strong travel partners. Over the years St. A's has been a very competitive team in the interlock and were very competitive this year with a 9-9-1 record against league competition (15-11-1 overall). Why would anyone want to drop a very good D3 team which happens to have one of the top 5 D3 arena's in New England? Norwich would need a new travel partner but I am sure something could be worked out (Castleton if Manhattanville joined the East and went with Skidmore). I would personally pick up Curry or Wentworth and have a 11 team league. Just curious but I wonder how many posters have very seen a game at St. A's?

 

[dreamer6]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Just curious but I wonder how many posters have very seen a game at St. A's?

I have seen 4 or 5 games there. Nice rink.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Another angle in the restructure of the ECAC East would be to drop St. Mike's and keep St. A's. Reason they maintain the same number of D2 games that they have now and keep a quality program in the East. St. A's and NEC are also strong travel partners. Over the years St. A's has been a very competitive team in the interlock and were very competitive this year with a 9-9-1 record against league competition (15-11-1 overall). Why would anyone want to drop a very good D3 team which happens to have one of the top 5 D3 arena's in New England? Norwich would need a new travel partner but I am sure something could be worked out (Castleton if Manhattanville joined the East and went with Skidmore). I would personally pick up Curry or Wentworth and have a 11 team league. Just curious but I wonder how many posters have very seen a game at St. A's?

The recurring rumor is that St. Mike's is considering moving to DIII. (Not sure they will, since the announcement they made concerning their new basketball coach made it sound as though they were quite committed to DII basketball). However, if they did do that, it would increase the likelihood that both St. As and St. Mikes would stay. Right now there are two games on the schedule that don't count, and that would remain constant. If both are booted, and nothing else changes, NEC would become Norwich's travel partner. (Both teams would have lost a travel partner, and there is a reasonable proximity - not a lot more than the distance between Skidmore and Castleton.

 

[hockeyfan69]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Is there anyway we get enough teams to leave the ECAC-NE and become doormats in the ECAC-E or MASCAC so that the ECAC-NE finally loses the AQ that it clearly doesn't deserve?

 

[hawkhockey]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

A couple of quick points reII teams in the ECACE
1 they are DII classified schools because they provide Scholarships to Basketball(M&W).NO other athletes receive athletic money,including ice hockey.
2 there are, currently, moratoriums in DI and DIII re:new members.My understanding is that even if they wanted to make a divisional move , there is no place to go.
3 If they were to move down to DIII,primarily for hockey,they would have to find a league(s) for 14 other Varsity sports.not an easy task.
When I played, there was a DI and a DII for hockey.The NCAA caused the problem, let the NCAA step up and fix it.
For the present, until the moratoriums are lifted, if the schools play by DIII rules,as they are currently doing, let the games count.
when the moratoriums are lifted, then it is either move up,move down or move out.