Dr. Clayton Forrester's Science Roundup

[Bob Gray]

Re: Dr. Clayton Forrester's Science Roundup

I'm glad you get the point, johnny. Bob didn't.

You assume too much. As usual.

 

[WisconsinWildcard]

Re: Dr. Clayton Forrester's Science Roundup

As already noted, that's not something I'd ever think to ask. If it did ever occur to me to ask and they would tell me their vaccination stats, it wouldn't matter much one way or another. I doubt they'd have that info readily available and want to share that, but that's just my guess.

I am not asking if you ask that. People do (like parents of immunodeficient kiddos, or the immunodeficient themselves) but that is not the question.

And to your second point, one of the institutions I worked at was very proud of the fact they implemented mandatory influenza vaccinations. They had higher than national average rates of hospital acquired influenza morbidity and mortality and this was a very effective way to curb that. They put the needs of patient safety over the "freedom" of their workers.

Many patients only need a small push to put them in serious danger. Influenza can and is that little push that can end someones life. I have seen it happen many times. As a healthcare worker, I think it is ones duty to do what they can to prevent harm to their patients.

Do you only think doctors (and nurses) who get a flu shot are reasonable and rational and should be allowed to practice medicine?

No. I think doctors and nurses should be selfless enough to protect their patients with such a small sacrifice. I also think health care institutions have the full right to mandate any reasonably safe vaccination for their employees in order to protect their patients (or customers for you free-market fiends).

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Dr. Clayton Forrester's Science Roundup

Huh. So we should show 60 percent of doctors and a bunch of nurses the door because they don't get a flu shot? That sounds like a lot bigger threat to the health of the American public than a tiny fraction of people not getting all their shots.

 

[WisconsinWildcard]

Re: Dr. Clayton Forrester's Science Roundup

Huh. So we should show 60 percent of doctors and a bunch of nurses the door because they don't get a flu shot? That sounds like a lot bigger threat to the health of the American public than a tiny fraction of people not getting all their shots.

That is a very bad reading of what I said.

Also the numbers you use are not that useful in the discussion. First of, the link from your story goes back to an ABC news article from 2008 that does not have a link to cite the source of that information.

Second, I would be willing to bet if those doctors and nurses worked at an institution that provided them free of charge and strongly encouraged them, that number would be greatly reduced.

Hospitals that require vaccination do so because it saves lives. It reduces the chance of influenza propagating throughout the hospital and killing people. A hospital with an influenza outbreak is a very dangerous place because patients are the very high risk population that has such a high mortality rate from influenza.

Stepping aside from influenza, do you think healthcare workers should be required to get any vaccinations? Why or why not?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Dr. Clayton Forrester's Science Roundup

That is a very bad reading of what I said.

Also the numbers you use are not that useful in the discussion. First of, the link from your story goes back to an ABC news article from 2008 that does not have a link to cite the source of that information.

Second, I would be willing to bet if those doctors and nurses worked at an institution that provided them free of charge and strongly encouraged them, that number would be greatly reduced.

Hospitals that require vaccination do so because it saves lives. It reduces the chance of influenza propagating throughout the hospital and killing people. A hospital with an influenza outbreak is a very dangerous place because patients are the very high risk population that has such a high mortality rate from influenza.

Stepping aside from influenza, do you think healthcare workers should be required to get any vaccinations? Why or why not?

I asked if they should be allowed to practice medicine if they don't get a flu shot. You said no. My reading was quite clear unless you wish to say yes or maybe or something other than no. I purposely asked a simple straightforward question.

The number I cite is referenced by ABC as coming from the CDC. The data is a number of years old, but absent someone presenting more up to date numbers, those are the only numbers we have, and they really aren't that out of date. I see no reason to think that the number has dramatically risen from 40 percent.

Here is the exact wording from the ABC story "According to the most recent data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, a significant chunk of health care professionals declined to get vaccinated against the influenza virus during the 2006-07 flu season, with only about 40 percent opting for a jab." I assume the CDC is still an ok source for info?

 

[busterman62]

Re: Dr. Clayton Forrester's Science Roundup

The number I cite is referenced by ABC as coming from the CDC. The data is a number of years old, but absent someone presenting more up to date numbers, those are the only numbers we have, and they really aren't that out of date. I see no reason to think that the number has dramatically risen from 40 percent.

Overall, final 2013-14 flu vaccination coverage among health care workers was 75.2% , similar to coverage of 72.0% in the 2012-13 season.
Coverage was highest among HCP working in settings with flu vaccination requirements (97.8%).
By occupation, flu vaccination was highest among physicians (92.2%) and nurses (90.5%), followed by nurse practitioners/physicians assistants (89.6%), other clinical personnel (87.4), and pharmacists (85.7%).

link to CDC

 

[GrinCDXX]

Re: Dr. Clayton Forrester's Science Roundup

Do you only think doctors (and nurses) who get a flu shot are reasonable and rational and should be allowed to practice medicine?.

No.

I asked if they should be allowed to practice medicine if they don't get a flu shot. You said no.

I purposely asked a simple straightforward question.

Apparently Bob's question wasn't straightforward enough for Bob to understand it.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Dr. Clayton Forrester's Science Roundup

link to CDC

So the numbers have gone up substantially, but there are still substantial numbers of healthcare workers who are not getting flu shots, basically 1 in 4. WW says they shouldn't be allowed to practice medicine. I think that would substantially degrade our healthcare system to take such a radical step.

 

[burd]

Re: Dr. Clayton Forrester's Science Roundup

Do you only think doctors (and nurses) who get a flu shot are reasonable and rational and should be allowed to practice medicine?

No. I think doctors and nurses should be selfless enough to protect their patients with such a small sacrifice. I also think health care institutions have the full right to mandate any reasonably safe vaccination for their employees in order to protect their patients (or customers for you free-market fiends).

I asked if they should be allowed to practice medicine if they don't get a flu shot. You said no.

Am I missing something, Bob, or you have a serious reading comprehension problem.

 

[busterman62]

Re: Dr. Clayton Forrester's Science Roundup

So the numbers have gone up substantially, but there are still substantial numbers of healthcare workers who are not getting flu shots, basically 1 in 4. WW says they shouldn't be allowed to practice medicine. I think that would substantially degrade our healthcare system to take such a radical step.

The vast majority of people in contact with Patients are being immunized. The stats are pulled down by mainly non-clinical personal who have limited patient contact.

The rural hospital where I'm medical director implemented a mandatory flu immunization policy a few years ago. It was a difficult decision to precede with but in the end, the overall benefits to our patients outweighed the cost/risk. We offered outs for religious reasons (required a letter from their priest/pastor/whatever explaining said reason) or medical reasons (letter from doctor explaining reason such as severe allergic reaction, etc). We offered those who could not meet a medical or religious exemption the option of wearing a mask whenever they entered the hospital or resigning. We lost a CRNA, a Board of Directors member, a MA and 2 volunteers. All of those who left stated that they felt they didn't need the vaccine and shouldn't be "forced" to receive it. I explained to them that we wash our hands prior to touching patients, we clean the skin prior to starting an IV, and we use sterile technique when performing surgery all because it helps protect patients from infection, the flu vaccine is just another method of protecting them. I then said if you still don't want to take this additional step in protecting those patients who we serve, don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out.

 

[WisconsinWildcard]

Re: Dr. Clayton Forrester's Science Roundup

I asked if they should be allowed to practice medicine if they don't get a flu shot. You said no. My reading was quite clear unless you wish to say yes or maybe or something other than no. I purposely asked a simple straightforward question.

Haha you are reading what you want to read as others have indicated.

Do you only think doctors (and nurses) who get a flu shot are reasonable and rational and should be allowed to practice medicine?

Also here is a little help. A straightforward question usually does not contain two "ands" in short succession and no commas. It also asks one question, not two.

 

[WisconsinWildcard]

Re: Dr. Clayton Forrester's Science Roundup

The vast majority of people in contact with Patients are being immunized. The stats are pulled down by mainly non-clinical personal who have limited patient contact.

The rural hospital where I'm medical director implemented a mandatory flu immunization policy a few years ago. It was a difficult decision to precede with but in the end, the overall benefits to our patients outweighed the cost/risk. We offered outs for religious reasons (required a letter from their priest/pastor/whatever explaining said reason) or medical reasons (letter from doctor explaining reason such as severe allergic reaction, etc). We offered those who could not meet a medical or religious exemption the option of wearing a mask whenever they entered the hospital or resigning. We lost a CRNA, a Board of Directors member, a MA and 2 volunteers. All of those who left stated that they felt they didn't need the vaccine and shouldn't be "forced" to receive it. I explained to them that we wash our hands prior to touching patients, we clean the skin prior to starting an IV, and we use sterile technique when performing surgery all because it helps protect patients from infection, the flu vaccine is just another method of protecting them. I then said if you still don't want to take this additional step in protecting those patients who we serve, don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out.

This. This, this a thousand times, this. But especially this, "I then said if you still don't want to take this additional step in protecting those patients who we serve, don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out."

 

[WisconsinWildcard]

Re: Dr. Clayton Forrester's Science Roundup

The number I cite is referenced by ABC as coming from the CDC. The data is a number of years old, but absent someone presenting more up to date numbers, those are the only numbers we have, and they really aren't that out of date. I see no reason to think that the number has dramatically risen from 40 percent.

Here is the exact wording from the ABC story "According to the most recent data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, a significant chunk of health care professionals declined to get vaccinated against the influenza virus during the 2006-07 flu season, with only about 40 percent opting for a jab." I assume the CDC is still an ok source for info?

link to CDC

Bob, this is a perfect example of what I was saying previously. Unless you read the primary information, you are reading something through a filter. You cannot make an informed opinion from another opinion alone.

You thought 60% of doctors did not receive an influenza vaccination and did not see a reason for that number to change. Busterman was kind enough to find the actual information for all of us and the number is more like 8%.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Dr. Clayton Forrester's Science Roundup

To hell with it. I'll say that any doctor who doesn't get the flu shot should be shown the door. Fire them all.

I love bm62's post on the subject.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Dr. Clayton Forrester's Science Roundup

You're so vain, you probably think this post is about you.

 

[joecct]

You're so vain, you probably think this post is about you.

Did they go to Nova Scotia to get a flu shot?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Dr. Clayton Forrester's Science Roundup

Bob, this is a perfect example of what I was saying previously. Unless you read the primary information, you are reading something through a filter. You cannot make an informed opinion from another opinion alone.

You thought 60% of doctors did not receive an influenza vaccination and did not see a reason for that number to change. Busterman was kind enough to find the actual information for all of us and the number is more like 8%.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not being purposely misleading. The info I cited was old CDC numbers, something you have yet to dispute. Nothing opinion related there. Someone took the time to look them up and the new numbers are noticeably higher, though your 8 percent number is misleading, as the overall number is 1 in 4 healthcare workers still don't get a flu shot. The number not getting shots is particularly high in long term care, dealing with the elderly. Your radical stand that these people should not be practicing medicine is still just that, even if the number you would remove from the healthcare system isn't as high as it would have been seven or eight years ago.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Dr. Clayton Forrester's Science Roundup

Haha you are reading what you want to read as others have indicated.


Also here is a little help. A straightforward question usually does not contain two "ands" in short succession and no commas. It also asks one question, not two.

Stop being silly and evasive. You knew exactly what I asked. If you'd not dance around things in this way, maybe there could be some actual discussion.

 

[unofan]

Stop being silly and evasive. You knew exactly what I asked. If you'd not dance around things in this way, maybe there could be some actual discussion.

Yeah, you asked if he "only" thought doctors and nurses were capable if they got flu shots. He said no.

Don't blame him for your poor question.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Dr. Clayton Forrester's Science Roundup

There was an interesting story on the Beeb this morning about the environmental risk/reward of nuclear power. It hasn't been posted to their Science page yet, but when it is I recommend it.

To any nuclear engineers (or anyway someone more related than Playwriting majors) out there: is there an online resource you recommend for a good overview of the topic? I'm taking Wiki as the baseline.