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Doug Woog vs. Dave Hakstol

Re: Doug Woog vs. Dave Hakstol

Woog played in 4 Minnesota State high school tournaments, and was the leading scorer one year. Played as an All-American for Minnesota, played on the US national team, and was the assistant coach for the US Olympic team. He coached Minnesota high school hockey, and Minnesota juniors. He is a member of the United States Hockey Hall of Fame. He also lives in Minnesota.
Hakstol was just as good a college coach, but he grew up in Canada, played a few years in North Dakota, coached a few years in North Dakota, and he moved on. One of these coaches is the heart and soul of Minnesota hockey, and the other is just someone looking for a job.
The OP only referred to coaching, not playing.

So despite the fact that Hakstol went to UND and was a captain there, he was just looking for a job? Whereas Woog was some kind of martyr who sacrificed his life for Gopher hockey?

Man, you must be higher than a 747 going to heaven right now.

Also, I don't remember Hakstol ever missing the NCAAs or being found guilty of an NCAA violations.
 
Re: Doug Woog vs. Dave Hakstol

That era also included a 1st round (and in some years the 2nd round) of multiple games played - either total goal series or best of 3 - so teams required just many games to advance (if not more) then as they do now. The '90 team had 5 NCAA playoff games and didn't even make the FF. Also a smaller field meant it was harder to get into the tournament. So not really close makes for a fun read.
I guess an argument can be made either way, but my opinion is that multiple games played makes upsets less likely. So a really good team would be harder to knock off in that scenario.

North Dakota also only made the tournament as a 4 seed once. So in that format North Dakota still would have made it every year but one.
 
Re: Doug Woog vs. Dave Hakstol

Uh ... no, no it's not.

Well then you explain how our backyards look exactly the same 1000's of miles away from each other? Oh, wait, you are the homeless guy living in the woods across the street. Please stay off my yard, thanks.
 
I guess an argument can be made either way, but my opinion is that multiple games played makes upsets less likely. So a really good team would be harder to knock off in that scenario.

North Dakota also only made the tournament as a 4 seed once. So in that format North Dakota still would have made it every year but one.

There's something to that angle for sure. Also of note that '90 team that lost 2 games to 1 to BU those games were at BU. So while they had some games at home, some were also on the road but definitely not neutral until the FF. There was plenty of discussion in those years about "East Coast bias" when the fields were being "selected".

But all that aside imho a legit argument can be made for Hak - the guy won a lot of games at UND my only point of contention would be thinking it's not even close. And even then ok no worries.
 
Re: Doug Woog vs. Dave Hakstol

The OP only referred to coaching, not playing.

So despite the fact that Hakstol went to UND and was a captain there, he was just looking for a job? Whereas Woog was some kind of martyr who sacrificed his life for Gopher hockey?

Man, you must be higher than a 747 going to heaven right now.

Also, I don't remember Hakstol ever missing the NCAAs or being found guilty of an NCAA violations.
Dude has been high as a kite all of his life.
 
Re: Doug Woog vs. Dave Hakstol

Why limit this to H & W? How about adding in Len Ceglarski. A longer coaching career but no NT. 3 time Spencer Penrose winner. All American and team captain as a player, including an Olympic Silver Medal and a National Championship as a player. As a coach .659 winning percentage, 8 Frozen 4's including 4 runner ups. Also won the Lester Patrick award and has a sportsmanship award named in his honor. Numerous other titles too in the ECAC and Hockey East. While all 3 never won a NT I would find it hard to compare H & W to Lenny.
 
Re: Doug Woog vs. Dave Hakstol

Why limit this to H & W? How about adding in Len Ceglarski. A longer coaching career but no NT. 3 time Spencer Penrose winner. All American and team captain as a player, including an Olympic Silver Medal and a National Championship as a player. As a coach .659 winning percentage, 8 Frozen 4's including 4 runner ups. Also won the Lester Patrick award and has a sportsmanship award named in his honor. Numerous other titles too in the ECAC and Hockey East. While all 3 never won a NT I would find it hard to compare H & W to Lenny.

Because Western Bias. For once. ;)
 
Re: Doug Woog vs. Dave Hakstol

Why limit this to H & W? How about adding in Len Ceglarski. A longer coaching career but no NT. 3 time Spencer Penrose winner. All American and team captain as a player, including an Olympic Silver Medal and a National Championship as a player. As a coach .659 winning percentage, 8 Frozen 4's including 4 runner ups. Also won the Lester Patrick award and has a sportsmanship award named in his honor. Numerous other titles too in the ECAC and Hockey East. While all 3 never won a NT I would find it hard to compare H & W to Lenny.

Me neither since I've never heard of him. He sounds like a real schlub though.
 
Re: Doug Woog vs. Dave Hakstol

There's something to that angle for sure. Also of note that '90 team that lost 2 games to 1 to BU those games were at BU. So while they had some games at home, some were also on the road but definitely not neutral until the FF. There was plenty of discussion in those years about "East Coast bias" when the fields were being "selected".

But all that aside imho a legit argument can be made for Hak - the guy won a lot of games at UND my only point of contention would be thinking it's not even close. And even then ok no worries.
That's really the difficulty of comparing the two eras, even though they aren't that far apart in terms of years.

Woog coached when only 8, then later 12 teams made the tournament. That meant it was easier to reach the Frozen Four and win the whole thing, which neither managed. It can also be legitimately argued that it was harder to make the tournament then because fewer teams were admitted. However, he also coached at the end of the "smoke-filled room" era in which there was a clear bias in favor of the larger, more traditional powers like Minnesota, Michigan, North Dakota, BU, etc..., getting in.

What's interesting when you look at their records is that Woog's teams had to play a lot more games in the opponent's rinks, as you pointed out. However, they also played a lot more games in their home rink.

By my calculations, the coaching records for each were:

Woog

Home ice: 8-1
Home crowd (St. Paul): 1-2
Neutral: 5-5
Away Crowd: 1-3
Away ice: 4-5

Hakstol

Home ice: 2-0
Home crowd (Fargo): 2-0
Neutral:10-8
Away crowd: 2-2
Away ice: 1-1

As you can see, more than 60% of Hakstol's games were on neutral ice, whereas Woog saw only about 25-30% of his there.

I'd say the one thing cutting against Woog in this comparison of great coaches who failed to win the big one is that Woog did get a chance to have two of his six Frozen Fours in front of his people in St. Paul. I know all North Dakota fans would have loved to have seen a Hak coached team play a Frozen Four in Grand Forks or Fargo during his tenure there. He had a pretty great win/loss record in North Dakota.

The other thing that surprised me when I looked at the records was the number of times a Hak coached team was the favorite (by seed) as opposed to the underdog, and comparing those numbers with Woog's.

Woog was 12-3 as the favorite, but 7-12 as the underdog and 0-1 when the two teams were seeded identically (Harvard and MN were both #2 seeds in the '89 championship game). I was surprised that Woog's teams were the underdog that often.

On the other hand, Hakstol was just 11-8 as the favorite but 6-3 as the underdog. Two out of three games we were the favorite.
 
Re: Doug Woog vs. Dave Hakstol

Why limit this to H & W? How about adding in Len Ceglarski. A longer coaching career but no NT. 3 time Spencer Penrose winner. All American and team captain as a player, including an Olympic Silver Medal and a National Championship as a player. As a coach .659 winning percentage, 8 Frozen 4's including 4 runner ups. Also won the Lester Patrick award and has a sportsmanship award named in his honor. Numerous other titles too in the ECAC and Hockey East. While all 3 never won a NT I would find it hard to compare H & W to Lenny.

Lenny's record as a coach in the Beanpot was poor, considering the talent on his teams.
 
Re: Doug Woog vs. Dave Hakstol

I know all North Dakota fans would have loved to have seen a Hak coached team play a Frozen Four in Grand Forks or Fargo during his tenure there. He had a pretty great win/loss record in North Dakota.

2011 St. Paul was home crowd for North Dakota. Closest you are going to get. Unfortunately that didn't mean squat that year.
 
Re: Doug Woog vs. Dave Hakstol

That's really the difficulty of comparing the two eras, even though they aren't that far apart in terms of years.

Woog coached when only 8, then later 12 teams made the tournament. That meant it was easier to reach the Frozen Four and win the whole thing, which neither managed. It can also be legitimately argued that it was harder to make the tournament then because fewer teams were admitted. However, he also coached at the end of the "smoke-filled room" era in which there was a clear bias in favor of the larger, more traditional powers like Minnesota, Michigan, North Dakota, BU, etc..., getting in.

3 minor points of 'clarification' imho:

1) A smaller field didn't necessarily allow a team to face fewer teams on the way to a final game (unless they had a bye) and certainly not fewer games to get there. In 1990 Minnesota played 5 games total against Clarkson and BC and didn't even make the FF. Had they got past BC they would have needed to play 7 games to win it all (against 4 different teams) compared with winning 4 games (against 4 different teams) in the current era. I don't know if either can be argued as "easier".
2) While the "smoke filled room" era probably helped get some teams in on a hair (which would include a program such as UND in seasons they were close enough) this was an era in which the creating the brackets contributed to coining the phrase, "East Coast bias" and didn't necessarily do either of our favorite teams any favors.
3) Having a local Frozen Four only matters if you get there and hockey can be a game of inches as we saw in 1989. I don't fault Woog for that loss although there might be others that I would. Also as SF pointed out 2011 was as close to a home crowed as UND could get and they were certainly as familiar with the Xcel as UM was with the Civic Center.
 
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3 minor points of 'clarification' imho:

1) A smaller field didn't necessarily allow a team to face fewer teams on the way to a final game (unless they had a bye) and certainly not fewer games to get there. In 1990 Minnesota played 5 games total against Clarkson and BC and didn't even make the FF. Had they got past BC they would have needed to play 7 games to win it all (against 4 different teams) compared with winning 4 games (against 4 different teams) in the current era. I don't know if either can be argued as "easier".
2) While the "smoke filled room" era probably helped get some teams in on a hair (which would include a program such as UND in seasons they were close enough) this was an era in which the creating the brackets contributed to coining the phrase, "East Coast bias" and didn't necessarily do either of our favorite teams any favors.
3) Having a local Frozen Four only matters if you get there and hockey can be a game of inches as we saw in 1989. I don't fault Woog for that loss although there might be others that I would. Also as SF pointed out 2011 was as close to a home crowed as UND could get and they were certainly as familiar with the Xcel as UM was with the Civic Center.

If there was East Coast bias, how come (it seemed) that the FF were western affairs?? I always thought the committee fixed the matchups to screw the East.
 
3 minor points of 'clarification' imho:

1) A smaller field didn't necessarily allow a team to face fewer teams on the way to a final game (unless they had a bye) and certainly not fewer games to get there. In 1990 Minnesota played 5 games total against Clarkson and BC and didn't even make the FF. Had they got past BC they would have needed to play 7 games to win it all (against 4 different teams) compared with winning 4 games (against 4 different teams) in the current era. I don't know if either can be argued as "easier".
2) While the "smoke filled room" era probably helped get some teams in on a hair (which would include a program such as UND in seasons they were close enough) this was an era in which the creating the brackets contributed to coining the phrase, "East Coast bias" and didn't necessarily do either of our favorite teams any favors.
3) Having a local Frozen Four only matters if you get there and hockey can be a game of inches as we saw in 1989. I don't fault Woog for that loss although there might be others that I would. Also as SF pointed out 2011 was as close to a home crowed as UND could get and they were certainly as familiar with the Xcel as UM was with the Civic Center.

By the 1991-92 season it was single elimination. In the 11 seasons where it was played that way, 7 champions played three games, 4 played four games, so it seemed at least a bit easier.
 
Re: Doug Woog vs. Dave Hakstol

By the 1991-92 season it was single elimination. In the 11 seasons where it was played that way, 7 champions played three games, 4 played four games, so it seemed at least a bit easier.

There were also 3 runner-ups that took 4 games to get to the final and I doubt any of the non-bye teams that failed to get that far would agree it was easier. Whatever...
 
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