Div III Bracketology

[WCHornet]

Plattsburgh's gonna mess around and win another natty aren't they...

They are peaking at the right time except the Buff State U hiccup! Good to get that hiccup out of the way at the right time.

 

[WCHornet]

Hiccup? I thought they looked good this weekend. Or did you just mean playing the Bengals now isn't really a great test for a team that's peaking?

Sorry, I was on the wrong thread. Thought this was the mens page.

 

[SHockey98]

I know that the pilot program is passed, but is there any chance there is a return to other selection criteria or a pairwise/other selection criteria hybrid used? It just seems a bit wrong if there's a 4-bid conference when no other league gets more than one bid.

I know the NESCAC has been great, but when a team like Eau Claire is most likely going to get left out barring a few upsets, that really sucks. Given they just beat and tied one of the western powers in River Falls. Keep in mind River Falls beat Middlebury out east. Also, the NESCAC has played a grand total of 2 games vs. western teams. (Aforementioned Midd-RF game, and Midd beat a middling Lake Forest team in January.)

Look I know PW is a good thing overall for the sport, but there needs to be some sort of override for situations like this. Other criteria has to be allowed. There is not enough crossover play in the women's game due to geography.

And believe me, I know Eau Claire isn't entirely off the hook either here. They dropped some games they should not have and also have shied away from playing Gustavus since GAC's resurgence as a program, and stopped scheduling them as a result. UWEC knows that if they're to get in the tourney, they can't afford more losses than the couple they usually take to River Falls. I know how the math works, and even an Eau Claire win/loss against Gustavus would probably not be enough anyways. Again, Eau Claire has a couple rough results, but everyone does. And most teams out west just do not have the margin for error others do.

In a better (more costly) cross-conference scheduling model, pairwise is awesome. But this is D-III women's hockey, so that scheduling isn't feasible. There needs to be more than JUST pairwise. I think come Selection Sunday this will be a wake-up call for coaches, AD's, SID's, etc.

 

[SHockey98]

I know that the pilot program is passed, but is there any chance there is a return to other selection criteria or a pairwise/other selection criteria hybrid used? It just seems a bit wrong if there's a 4-bid conference when no other league gets more than one bid.

I know the NESCAC has been great, but when a team like Eau Claire is most likely going to get left out barring a few upsets, that really sucks. Given they just beat and tied one of the western powers in River Falls. Keep in mind River Falls beat Middlebury out east. Also, the NESCAC has played a grand total of 2 games vs. western teams. (Aforementioned Midd-RF game, and Midd beat a middling Lake Forest team in January.)

Look I know PW is a good thing overall for the sport, but there needs to be some sort of override for situations like this. Other criteria has to be allowed. There is not enough crossover play in the women's game due to geography.

And believe me, I know Eau Claire isn't entirely off the hook either here. They dropped some games they should not have and also have shied away from playing Gustavus since GAC's resurgence as a program, and stopped scheduling them as a result. UWEC knows that if they're to get in the tourney, they can't afford more losses than the couple they usually take to River Falls. I know how the math works, and even an Eau Claire win/loss against Gustavus would probably not be enough anyways. Again, Eau Claire has a couple rough results, but everyone does. And most teams out west just do not have the margin for error others do.

In a better (more costly) cross-conference scheduling model, pairwise is awesome. But this is D-III women's hockey, so that scheduling isn't feasible. There needs to be more than JUST pairwise. I think come Selection Sunday this will be a wake-up call for coaches, AD's, SID's, etc.

To follow up:

https://www.uscho.com/stats/intercon...ion-iii-women/

There is a combined 21 East vs. West games this season. With how flipping long this season is, there have been only 21 games total. The MIAC in itself has 0 and the WIAC has 2. And in the very very limited sample size, the West is 15-5-1 in said games. I know that's nothing, given the extremely low game count, and four of those wins are from eastern independents. But something has to be said for this discrepancy. I'm not here b****ing and moaning saying the west is superior. To be honest, I think there are like 7 national title contending teams in the NESCAC itself. Plattsburgh, Elmira, Cortland, Utica, Naz, Norwich could win the whole damn thing easily. But the chances just aren't there right now to make this the only thing used for selection. I get there is a common opponents factor. That breaks close ties in-region. But as you can see above, hardly any cross-region. We have two different sports being played folks.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

I know that the pilot program is passed, but is there any chance there is a return to other selection criteria or a pairwise/other selection criteria hybrid used? It just seems a bit wrong if there's a 4-bid conference when no other league gets more than one bid.

I know the NESCAC has been great, but when a team like Eau Claire is most likely going to get left out barring a few upsets, that really sucks. Given they just beat and tied one of the western powers in River Falls. Keep in mind River Falls beat Middlebury out east. Also, the NESCAC has played a grand total of 2 games vs. western teams. (Aforementioned Midd-RF game, and Midd beat a middling Lake Forest team in January.)

Look I know PW is a good thing overall for the sport, but there needs to be some sort of override for situations like this. Other criteria has to be allowed. There is not enough crossover play in the women's game due to geography.

And believe me, I know Eau Claire isn't entirely off the hook either here. They dropped some games they should not have and also have shied away from playing Gustavus since GAC's resurgence as a program, and stopped scheduling them as a result. UWEC knows that if they're to get in the tourney, they can't afford more losses than the couple they usually take to River Falls. I know how the math works, and even an Eau Claire win/loss against Gustavus would probably not be enough anyways. Again, Eau Claire has a couple rough results, but everyone does. And most teams out west just do not have the margin for error others do.

In a better (more costly) cross-conference scheduling model, pairwise is awesome. But this is D-III women's hockey, so that scheduling isn't feasible. There needs to be more than JUST pairwise. I think come Selection Sunday this will be a wake-up call for coaches, AD's, SID's, etc.

The first year the PairWise was implemented, St Thomas got the #1 seed and hosting rights ahead of Plattsburgh, making it the very first time the West Region earned the right to host by merit, instead of just the three-consecutive-years rule. Plattsburgh flew out and proved on the ice they were the true #1 team. But now that the math isn't working out in the west’s favor this year, it’s suddenly unfair to the West? Math is math. It’s MILES better than what we had before, in my opinion.

 

[SHockey98]

The first year the PairWise was implemented, St Thomas got the #1 seed and hosting rights ahead of Plattsburgh, making it the very first time the West Region earned the right to host by merit, instead of just the three-consecutive-years rule. Plattsburgh flew out and proved on the ice they were the true #1 team. But now that the math isn't working out in the west’s favor this year, it’s suddenly unfair to the West? Math is math. It’s MILES better than what we had before, in my opinion.

You must’ve misunderstood me. I never claimed it was unfair to the West. That’s just the budget restrictions of division III hockey. What I’m saying is they have less margin for error than eastern teams when it comes to selection. Because of this system, they are up against it due to the scheduling whereabouts and the math involved with RPI.

 

[Scott_TG]

Of those 15 Western wins:

4 were Trine beating up on the bottom-of-the-league new program Hilbert which only has 10 skaters and averaged 9 goals per game.

Aurora has 2 over Chatham.

Marian has a win over Nichols

River Falls has the two most impressive, taking down Plattsburgh and Middlebury, the third place and champion teams from last year's nationals.

Adrian then delivered the 6 remaining inter-region wins, the most impressive being their win at Norwich but they handily beat a middling Chatham, an ascendent Oswego program twice and CCC-regular season champion Suffolk twice.


The 5 Eastern wins:

- Plattsburgh beat Adrian to win the East-West
- Middlebury won a visiting Lake Forest (I get wanting to make the trip east worth Lake Forest's while but I feel like Midd could have gotten a game that would have helped their SOS more)
- Castleton over Marian
- Stevenson defeated Trine twice.

The tie:

Castleton hosted Lake Forest before the Foresters visited Midd and they skated to a 2-2 tie.

Both numerically and qualitatively the West has been decisively better in inter-region play this year, though outside of Adrian and the two venerated Eastern tournaments it was a lot of middling to lower programs getting some experience. I like the increase we're seeing in non-conference trips but with the exception of River Falls, it fell to the NCHA schools (Adrian in particular) to bear the brunt of the work. The MIAC should be doing more given they're all decently well-funded private schools.

 

[4and20]

I like the increase we're seeing in non-conference trips but with the exception of River Falls, it fell to the NCHA schools (Adrian in particular) to bear the brunt of the work. The MIAC should be doing more given they're all decently well-funded private schools.

The airlines fly in both directions, that's how the western teams get home after going out east. Why should the MIAC most of the time (I didn't say always) have to be the ones traveling. The NESCA should be doing more given they're all decently well-funded private schools. Middlebury still owes Gustavus games, King Bill canceled his last scheduled trip so late in the summer the west schools had a difficult time finding replacement teams to fill out their schedules, had to play conference teams in non-conference games. Some two hour bus ride apparently was just to much for the Middlebury women. And when the west teams do go east, schools like Plattsburg won't even buy there opponents sandwiches after the game. I think the west has done more that it's share of travel with little return from the eastern schools.

 

[Scott_TG]

I was unaware Midd stiffed GAC on the return engagement or that my alma mater wasn't providing appropriate hospitality.

You also bring up a very good point that when the top teams play inter-region it's usually western teams coming east.

Thank you for the alternating view points. With what you said considered I do apologize for calling out the MIAC in my last post instead of a more general appeal for more top teams to play inter-regional games in the regular season outside of the East-West and Cardinal-Panther weekend.

 

[4and20]

There is a combined 21 East vs. West games this season. With how flipping long this season is, there have been only 21 games total. The MIAC in itself has 0 and the WIAC has 2. And in the very very limited sample size, the West is 15-5-1 in said games. I know that's nothing, given the extremely low game count, and four of those wins are from eastern independents. But something has to be said for this discrepancy. I'm not here b****ing and moaning saying the west is superior. To be honest, I think there are like 7 national title contending teams in the NESCAC itself. Plattsburgh, Elmira, Cortland, Utica, Naz, Norwich could win the whole damn thing easily. But the chances just aren't there right now to make this the only thing used for selection. I get there is a common opponents factor. That breaks close ties in-region. But as you can see above, hardly any cross-region. We have two different sports being played folks.

To clarify additional background (and I hope I have this correct) of the 21 games 15 were played out east meaning western teams traveled east. Of the 6 games played at western schools Adrian host 3, 1 at Trine which was a return game from Trine going to Hilbert and not to say bus trips to Adrian and Trine are not a hike but Nichols was the only eastern team to fly to the Midwest coming to St. Paul/Mpls for 2 games. I would expect more games maybe played next year at the western schools as Stevenson, Chatham, Oswego may own games in return next year. But I wouldn't expect to see the likes of Middlebury, Plattsburgh, Norwich, Amherst, etc. anywhere near the Mississippi River anytime soon other than if the NCAA pays for it.

 

[WCHornet]

To clarify additional background (and I hope I have this correct) of the 21 games 15 were played out east meaning western teams traveled east. Of the 6 games played at western schools Adrian host 3, 1 at Trine which was a return game from Trine going to Hilbert and not to say bus trips to Adrian and Trine are not a hike but Nichols was the only eastern team to fly to the Midwest coming to St. Paul/Mpls for 2 games. I would expect more games maybe played next year at the western schools as Stevenson, Chatham, Oswego may own games in return next year. But I wouldn't expect to see the likes of Middlebury, Plattsburgh, Norwich, Amherst, etc. anywhere near the Mississippi River anytime soon other than if the NCAA pays for it.

The majority of the games played in the east were highly regarded tournaments. The teams were invited and accepted. If they did not wish to accept, I am sure there were others that would jump at the chance to participate. I do not hear any of the coaches or team members complaining.

 

[SHockey98]

To clarify additional background (and I hope I have this correct) of the 21 games 15 were played out east meaning western teams traveled east. Of the 6 games played at western schools Adrian host 3, 1 at Trine which was a return game from Trine going to Hilbert and not to say bus trips to Adrian and Trine are not a hike but Nichols was the only eastern team to fly to the Midwest coming to St. Paul/Mpls for 2 games. I would expect more games maybe played next year at the western schools as Stevenson, Chatham, Oswego may own games in return next year. But I wouldn't expect to see the likes of Middlebury, Plattsburgh, Norwich, Amherst, etc. anywhere near the Mississippi River anytime soon other than if the NCAA pays for it.

I remember hearing on the DIII hockey news podcast with Elmira head coach and MN native Jake Bobrowski that he would love to get the chance to bring his program west for the first time. Bobrowski is a former St Paul cop and coached at Hamline for years. He said he’d love to get a chance to play the Pipers with Elmira and had also mentioned Gustavus given the rivalry the Gusties have with Hamline. Again, l’ll believe it when I see it.

 

[4and20]

The majority of the games played in the east were highly regarded tournaments. The teams were invited and accepted. If they did not wish to accept, I am sure there were others that would jump at the chance to participate. I do not hear any of the coaches or team members complaining.

4 games out of the 15 east west games played in the east this season were tournaments, that's 27%, that doesn't seem like a majority to me, but then again I am in fly over country and really don't count. Of all the 2 games played west of eastern Michigan and Indiana 100% were tournament games which would mean that no eastern school traveled any further west than to go to Adrian or Trine for a non tournament game. Like wise only Aurora and Lake Forest traveled east for 5 non conference non tournament games and as someone mention above Middlebury might have been better off non playing Lake Forest.

 

[DavidNardolillo]

I would expect more games maybe played next year at the western schools as Stevenson, Chatham, Oswego may own games in return next year. But I wouldn't expect to see the likes of Middlebury, Plattsburgh, Norwich, Amherst, etc. anywhere near the Mississippi River anytime soon other than if the NCAA pays for it.

Looking at Amherst's historical schedules, it hasn't played a team from West of New York since 2011-2012 when they played at St. Thomas and UW River Falls. It looks like the NESCAC schedule occupies most weekends during January, which would be the least disruptive time to the academic calendar to work in a game out West. But there aren't many free weekends at all, and there are a lot of appealing non-league opponents within a few hour bus ride. There may also be budget issues where the cost of airfare isn't doable.

I am not sure how to solve it, other than maybe finding a sponsor for a holiday tournament similar to some of the D3 Hoops tournaments that bring together teams from opposite regions.

 

[spwood]

Another issue may be with public institutions. I don’t remember Plattsburgh State -men or women- have ever traveled west during a season. Someone will correct me if I am wrong. I doubt that sort of travel and expense is in their budget…

 

[SHockey98]

So true about the public school budgets. Hence why the University of Wisconsin-River Falls with the 9.5K instate tuition they charge went to play in the Cardinal-Panther Classic 2 of the last 3 iterations in fucking northern Vermont. Definitely can’t be in the public school budget though. No room for a Plattsburgh to come west for Pete’s sake.

 

[4and20]

I know that the pilot program is passed, but is there any chance there is a return to other selection criteria or a pairwise/other selection criteria hybrid used? It just seems a bit wrong if there's a 4-bid conference when no other league gets more than one bid.

Look I know PW is a good thing overall for the sport, but there needs to be some sort of override for situations like this. Other criteria has to be allowed. There is not enough crossover play in the women's game due to geography.

In a better (more costly) cross-conference scheduling model, pairwise is awesome. But this is D-III women's hockey, so that scheduling isn't feasible. There needs to be more than JUST pairwise. I think come Selection Sunday this will be a wake-up call for coaches, AD's, SID's, etc.

There are several solutions to the issue you raise:
1. Don't allow the western schools to participate in the National DIII tournament (after all they always end up losing anyway). Wouldn't the final four be so much better with four New England schools instead of the token west school being included. Then we would never ever have to have the tournament in the Midwest ever again.
2. The western schools should just not want to play in the National tournament.
3. And my favorite, even though this wouldn't help Eau Claire, have Gustavus and Adrian lose their conference championship games, which would result in a 5/6 split west east rather than the expected 3/8 split. Then there might be some changes, my gosh imagine a final four with three west teams and one eastern school. The end of the world as we know it!

 

[spwood]

So true about the public school budgets. Hence why the University of Wisconsin-River Falls with the 9.5K instate tuition they charge went to play in the Cardinal-Panther Classic 2 of the last 3 iterations in ****ing northern Vermont. Definitely can’t be in the public school budget though. No room for a Plattsburgh to come west for Pete’s sake.

And there can’t be a difference between a Wisconsin state budget and a New York one. SUNY schools are (to my knowledge) not given a budget to fly and any bus trips to a western school are horrendous. It has to be six hours by bus to Buffalo from Plattsburgh…

 

[WCHornet]

And there can’t be a difference between a Wisconsin state budget and a New York one. SUNY schools are (to my knowledge) not given a budget to fly and any bus trips to a western school are horrendous. It has to be six hours by bus to Buffalo from Plattsburgh…

Just shy of 7 hours to Fredonia

 

[4and20]

Can anyone explain the NCHA Women's Semi Finals and Championship schedule? I understand the number 1 seed, the conference champion, earns the rights to host the finals. But what I don't understand is why the championship is scheduled 23 hours after the first semi-final and 19 hours after the start of the second semi final. I get that Adrian has a schedule issue with the Men's Championship also on Saturday but why can't the men play at 8:00pm? Have the women start at 4:00pm and move the Friday games to 2 and 6. Or, have the men play in the afternoon and Women in the evening would seem even better, the men only play the one game. If it is a crowd issue because they can get more fans for the men on Saturday evening why don't the Adrian women play the later semi final game for a larger fan count. Talk about a home ice advantage, even the NASCAC leaves more time between the Semi Finals and Championship. At this level playing back to back games with so little time in between for recovery will lead to more injuries, well I guess as long as the injuries are not to Adrian who cares. Maybe Adrian could play Friday evening, get a good nights sleep and just have the other two semi final teams play early Saturday morning and play back to back games. Saves on a night in the hotel, one day less missing class, ever one wins.

Update: I stand corrected, the championship games will now start 22 hours after the second semi-final and 46 hours after the first semi final due to a power outage. You can't make this stuff up.