Democratic Challengers: Starting this thread to Own The Libs!

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers: Starting this thread to Own The Libs!

Is the consensus here not to believe Tara Reade?

The rule is you evaluate a claim based on evidence and consistency.

I have not followed the Reade claim but I thought this was the person who initial claimed Biden groped her at a time and place it was established he could not have been and then changed her story to a different time and place it was established he could not have been.

If that's the case, welp, that aint good for her. But the whole idea is neither to believe nor disbelieve, but evaluate the claim based on the facts.

 

[jerphisch]

Re: Democratic Challengers: Starting this thread to Own The Libs!

The rule is you evaluate a claim based on evidence and consistency.

I have not followed the Reade claim but I thought this was the person who initial claimed Biden groped her at a time and place it was established he could not have been and then changed her story to a different time and place it was established he could not have been.

If that's the case, welp, that aint good for her. But the whole idea is neither to believe nor disbelieve, but evaluate the claim based on the facts.

Nope, this is the one who claimed he did not sexually assault her but but made her uncomfortable by touching her neck and shoulders and abused his power by reducing her role on his staff when she talked to people about it. But is now claiming he used her as a #1 foam finger.

 

[psych]

Here's a good story from a reporter that has been in contact with Reade since April 2019. Her story and the witness corroboration has changed quite a bit in a year. It may be true, but I'm skeptical.
https://www.vox.com/2020/5/7/21248713/tara-reade-joe-biden-sexual-assault-accusation

Read that excellent article earlier today. Vox is probably my favorite website. I didn’t see where Reade claimed in that quote for Biden to drop out; just not to run on character. It’s possible she’s said elsewhere for him to drop out. I wouldn’t vote for him either if I were her.

As the article said, there aren’t corroborated stories to build Biden’s history of potential sexual abuse. Plenty of history of sexual harassment, etc. I haven’t seen anywhere where Reade’s story has been completely disproved. I’m not sure we ever will.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Democratic Challengers: Starting this thread to Own The Libs!

Yeah the problem is her changed story seems to coincide with the fact that the media didn't find enough evidence to back up her original story. It smells like she added more to try and chum the waters figuring the accusation would be enough to end his run and by the time the dust settled no one would care where the truth lied.

I believe he is a creep, but I'm not sure that is enough. I also believe she has an agenda which also doesn't help her cause. The media isn't exactly against tearing people down so if three different outlets couldn't find enough I just wonder.

If it's true he is scum.

 

[psych]

Yeah the problem is her changed story seems to coincide with the fact that the media didn't find enough evidence to back up her original story. It smells like she added more to try and chum the waters figuring the accusation would be enough to end his run and by the time the dust settled no one would care where the truth lied.

I believe he is a creep, but I'm not sure that is enough. I also believe she has an agenda which also doesn't help her cause. The media isn't exactly against tearing people down so if three different outlets couldn't find enough I just wonder.

If it's true he is scum.

What’s her agenda? I ask out of genuine curiosity. Plenty of well-read minds on this message board. What do you think?

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers: Starting this thread to Own The Libs!

Here is the Wikipedia story on Reade's allegations.

 

[Handyman]

What’s her agenda? I ask out of genuine curiosity. Plenty of well-read minds on this message board. What do you think?

She is a big Sanders supporter. (as am I)

I do not engender her supporting any of the other Non-Bidens but I could be wrong.

I have nothing against her mind you just like I don't have an issue with Anita Hill not supporting Biden. Hell I only am cause he won. But wild changes in tone and story and an obvious bias towards the opponent do not help the credibility.

 

[unofan]

Is the consensus here not to believe Tara Reade? I think it’s possible to believe Tara Reade, and still vote for Biden come November. I mean, I am. I don’t find it that hard to square personally. I’m also a cis white guy, so I have 0 experiences that allow me to relate to what Tara Reade experienced with Biden. Ultimately, Biden >>>> Trump or any Republican, even being a cis white man who can’t keep his hands to himself. He wasn’t my first choice, or even my fifth, but apparently the party I’m apart of, including the vast majority of African-Americans, want Biden as their nominee. Until I’m instructed, maybe socially shamed, not to vote for him, I assume our party think he’s our best chance to win come November. A third party vote this election is a worthless protest.

I believe Biden probably inappropriately hugged her or otherwise made her feel uncomfortable. I don't believe for a second he sexually assaulted her.

 

[unofan]

What’s her agenda? I ask out of genuine curiosity. Plenty of well-read minds on this message board. What do you think?

She's a big Sanders supporter who has also written favorably about Putin in the past. Her latest allegations just happened to coincide with Bidens surge in the primaries.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers: Starting this thread to Own The Libs!

I believe Biden probably inappropriately hugged her or otherwise made her feel uncomfortable. I don't believe for a second he sexually assaulted her.

Is there a distinction between sexual assault and inappropriate touching?

It seems like you are drawing a distinction between touching somebody for sexual gratification and touching them in a way that shows sexual dominance or ownership. Does the latter not qualify as sexual assault?

I don't think we're talking about Biden getting his rocks off. But sexual assault is typically not about the sex, it's about the power.

These are not loaded questions or accusations. I'm trying to get at truth.

 

[unofan]

Is there a distinction between sexual assault and inappropriate touching?

It seems like you are drawing a distinction between touching somebody for sexual gratification and touching them in a way that shows sexual dominance or ownership. Does the latter not qualify as sexual assault?

I don't think we're talking about Biden getting his rocks off. But sexual assault is typically not about the sex, it's about the power.

These are not loaded questions or accusations. I'm trying to get at truth.

Uh, yeah. Inappropriate conduct is Joe Namath kissing Suzy Kolber or Dubya giving Merkel an unsolicited shoulder rub. Sexual assault is grabbing them by the pu**y.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers: Starting this thread to Own The Libs!

Uh, yeah. Inappropriate conduct is Joe Namath kissing Suzy Kolber or Dubya giving Merkel an unsolicited shoulder rub. Sexual assault is grabbing them by the pu**y.

That isn't so.

According to the United States Department of Justice, sexual assault is “any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient.” Sexual assault is basically an umbrella term that includes sexual activities such as rape, fondling, and attempted rape.

Jennifer Gentile Long, the chief executive officer of AEquitas: The Prosecutors' Resource on Violence Against Women, a global project she co-founded in April 2009, tells SELF those include:


+Penetration crimes:
- Of a body part by another body part (i.e., penal penetration of mouth, anus, vagina)
- Of a body part by an object

+Contact with genitalia, breast, buttocks, or other intimate body parts

+Exposure of genitalia, breast, buttocks or other intimate body parts

According to Austin, sexual harassment can include sexual assault (such as rape and/or grabbing), but it’s also broader. Sexual harassment “includes creating a hostile environment, pervasive jokes/comments, looks, and body language that makes an individual feel harassed,” she says. But, again, the exact definition can vary by state.

The thing that makes it sexual assault is touching. Kissing Suzy is assault. Whistling at Suzy is harassment.

 

[unofan]

That isn't so.

Now I'm confused. I distinguish harassment from assault, you post links basically defining assault as various sex crimes and distinguishing it from general harassment, and yet you claim what I said wasn't so?

I'll be more clear. I believe Biden engaged in conduct that could be labeled as harassment simply because there's ample evidence of him being handsy with everyone. I don't believe for a second he stuck his fingers in her vajayjay.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers: Starting this thread to Own The Libs!

Now I'm confused. I distinguish harassment from assault, you post links basically defining assault as various sex crimes and distinguishing it from general harassment, and yet you claim what I said wasn't so?

I'll be more clear. I believe Biden engaged in conduct that could be labeled as harassment simply because there's ample evidence of him being handsy with everyone. I don't believe for a second he stuck his fingers in her vajayjay.

Assault is touching. If he's handsy that is assault. It doesn't matter if he's handsy with everyone -- that just means he assaults everyone.

 

[unofan]

Assault is touching. If he's handsy that is assault. It doesn't matter if he's handsy with everyone -- that just means he assaults everyone.

Oh for farks sake, if you want to turn this into a first year torts exam, then fine. Technically any unwanted or offensive contact is an assault, just like going 1 mile per hour over the speed limit is technically a simple misdemeanor.

In the real world, though there's a huge difference betweenwhat Biden likely did and what he's now accused of, and you know it too.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers: Starting this thread to Own The Libs!

Oh for farks sake, if you want to turn this into a first year torts exam, then fine. Technically any unwanted or offensive contact is an assault, just like going 1 mile per hour over the speed limit is technically a simple misdemeanor.

In the real world, though there's a huge difference betweenwhat Biden likely did and what he's now accused of, and you know it too.

For the first paragraph, statute is important and you know it.

For the second paragraph, I was talking about whether Biden may have committed assault. I still don't know what the hell he is accused of because the story keeps changing.

Don't get on my case here. I'm challenging the distinction you made which suggested to me that if Biden touches women against their will but doesn't penetrate them and want to get his ya yas out then that isn't assault. That's a step backwards in our understanding of sexual assault. It's heavily biased towards the accused: if he didn't get off then he gets off. You know what happens when we allow that: Kavanaugh.

 

[burd]

Re: Democratic Challengers: Starting this thread to Own The Libs!

Oh for farks sake, if you want to turn this into a first year torts exam, then fine. Technically any unwanted or offensive contact is an assault, just like going 1 mile per hour over the speed limit is technically a simple misdemeanor.

In the real world, though there's a huge difference betweenwhat Biden likely did and what he's now accused of, and you know it too.

Isn't that the tort definition of battery?

 

[unofan]

For the first paragraph, statute is important and you know it.

For the second paragraph, I was talking about whether Biden may have committed assault. I still don't know what the hell he is accused of because the story keeps changing.

Don't get on my case here. I'm challenging the distinction you made which suggested to me that if Biden touches women against their will but doesn't penetrate them and want to get his ya yas out then that isn't assault. That's a step backwards in our understanding of sexual assault. It's heavily biased towards the accused: if he didn't get off then he gets off. You know what happens when we allow that: Kavanaugh.

First off, there is a difference between assault (any unwanted or offensive touching) and sexual assault (an unwanted or offensive touching of specific body parts) that you're ignoring. They're treated differently for reasons that should be obvious.

Prosecutorial discretion is also important. I don't want cops wasting their time pulling over people going one 1 mph over the speed limit, and I don't think Dubya giving Merkel an unwanted shoulder rub is worth taking to court, either. Everyone cringed, the late night comics got free material for a couple nights, and we moved on.

Biden's known conduct falls into the latter category. I don't think he does it because he's trying to dominate women or show power over them; I honestly think it's just his nature. It's in the vein of southerners calling strangers sweetie or sugar. Doesn't make it right or appropriate, but it doesn't make him Kavanagh or Trump, either.

And how can you claim you don't know the latest allegation when 3 or 4 of us have repeated it on here. Ms. Reade now claims that at some unspecified time at an unspecified location, Biden stuck his fingers in her glory hole.

 

[unofan]

Isn't that the tort definition of battery?

Probably, i get those 2 mixed up all the time. One involves contact, the other involves fear of the contact.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Democratic Challengers: Starting this thread to Own The Libs!

I believe Biden probably inappropriately hugged her or otherwise made her feel uncomfortable. I don't believe for a second he sexually assaulted her.

This, and I would add that Biden is a man of his times. The guy is older than dirt. Remember during #MeToo when Bush Sr. talked about patting women on the backside (not in a 'copping a feel' way, but in an athletic sort of way) and how that was accepted or tolerated 30-40 years ago, but he recognized that times have changed now?

That's Biden and the hugging/ear & head smooching/etc.