What's new
By:
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

SJHovey said:
I think climate change is real.
Click to expand...

Where are you on these 6 statements?

<img src="https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/mxszodtdvk6igeitnqluka.png" height=666>

Me:

1. Strongly agree
2. This is simply a fact, obviously
3. Strongly agree
4. Unsure (unsure of lifespan)
5. Strongly agree
6. Agree
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

Kepler said:
Where are you on these 6 statements?

<img src="https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/mxszodtdvk6igeitnqluka.png" height=666>

Me:

1. Strongly agree
2. This is simply a fact, obviously
3. Strongly agree
4. Unsure (unsure of lifespan)
5. Strongly agree
6. Agree
Click to expand...

1. I certainly agree human activities contribute to global warming.
2. I don't pretend to know what most scientists believe, but I think that credible scientists should agree that global warming is occurring.
3. I believe the effects have begun.
4. I'm skeptical of this, only because I'm old.
5. It would be a lie if I claimed I worried about this constantly, or a great deal. But it's something that I have in the back of my mind.
6. I'm not sure I agree with this, although "the news" is fairly vague. I think credible news sources talk about the issue, it's impact on places like Venice, and the consequences of not addressing it.
 
 
Last edited:
Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

Thinking that climate change won't affect you in your lifetime to own the libs.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

SJHovey said:
Are there people calling him "dangerous," including those looking to sell newspapers or magazines, or draw clicks to websites? Sure.

Are there people who disagree with my opinion? Sure.

It doesn't mean I'm wrong. It doesn't mean I'm right. It's just my opinion.
Click to expand...

I think he is dangerous. I am a pessimist and cynic by nature. When he got the nomination I said things would go bad because he would do everything he has done. I was dressed down by everyone I know because of how dark I said things would get under him. People I know still cant believe it because I was lowering expectations so we could look back and say "well at least he didnt do THAT" but he actually went farther than I thought he would until his second term.

And I dont think he is dangerous because he is rich, or a Republican, or a Narcissist...I think he is dangerous because history tells us what is coming next. I know you want to believe this is stuff that can be fixed easily, or that it isnt so horrible it cant be reversed (my dad sounds a LOT like you...of course he also believes the GOP will stop him if he goes much farther...he smokes a lot of weed ;) ) but history is not on your side here. As someone who is a student of history, had a license to teach it and continues to study it the truth is November is the rubicon. If he wins again there is no going back. No white knights will save us. If he and his party are this bad when their butts are on the line what will they do when they literally cannot be stopped?

Now this is where an older person than I will say "they wont touch entitlements and they wont touch Roe v. Wade" because over the decades it has always been all bluster. Even Dubya knew enough about the game to push the line as far as possible but never go too far that you put the party at risk. If Trump wins again and the Senate stays with him he will be untouchable and so will they. They will stack the judicial deck so deep it will take 3 decades to fix it. (and god forbid RBG dies we might as well quit) Nothing out of the House will get passed so the people will be screwed over as well. And it will be 50/50 he decides to leave after his second term (he and his Nazis will use FDR as an example ignoring the Constitution) and even if he does he will push for one of his spawns to run and they will walk away with it cause the game will be rigged.

So call me hyperbolic, call me Chicken Little if it makes you feel better...but Republics fall for a reason and all it takes is reading a little bit to see the point of no return after the fact. We are lucky we see it right now, and if we dont stop it we have no one to blame for it but ourselves.
 
Last edited:
Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

rufus said:
Absolutely agree with this.

And I assume Hovey is of that age where, when you were growing up, and whenever the Nazi Germany subject was brought up, people always said, "that could never happen here"

And I've said it before, but you wonder and think, "What would I have done in those circumstances?" and you always think it would be the courageous and right thing.

You know what you would have done in those circumstances? Exactly what you're doing now.
Click to expand...

As a Jewish person I can say my "fight or flight" is on overload these days. America right now is every European Country right before they expelled or killed us going back a thousand years. This is not randos holding up signs saying "The Guy I Hate in Office is Hitler!" this is full on descent into authoritarianism by the very party that is supposed to be AGAINST government over reach.

What we are seeing is what happens when there is no real conservatives left. Not the Jesus Cult ones...the ones who believe in personal freedom.
 
Last edited:
Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

rufus said:
You know what you would have done in those circumstances? Exactly what you're doing now.
Click to expand...

I wish there was a way to put this in the forefront of everybody's mind, every day. I struggle with not doing enough right now in case what I believe is happening is happening. I am not out there knocking on doors. I haven't quit my job and sold my possessions to make sure these guys are defeated peacefully at the ballot box. And almost nobody ever does.

The quote:

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Click to expand...

we always imagine ourselves as the good men doing something. But that's because we imagine a stormtrooper beating a man in the street and stepping in to stop him. Most of us, after a moment of shock, and probably a quick look around to scout for allies, would do that, I think. But what about this situation: our legal system being dismantled, half the media brazenly lying about it, a quarter of the country cheering it and half the country utterly passive and detached? What does doing something mean? It has to be more than being a keyboard warrior, but is it really just limping down to the local DNC and handing out f-cking fliers, a thing which I immediately throw away when I see one?

My rationalization is (1) I try to hold conversations counter all the bullsh-t spewing from Fox, correcting their lies with citations, (2) just being a person who by example defeats the stereotype of the insane socialist who wants to take your stuff, and (3) supporting Dr. Mrs. who really is fighting, hard and effectively, from her job on the inside. But is that enough? Surely not when they start putting people into camps (oh, they have) or ordering extrajudicial killings (oh, they have) or ignoring the Constitution (oh, they have) and the courts (coming soon?).

If it was happening for policies which I liked, would I be blasé? Seeing righties say "nothing to see here, move along; don't be hysterical" suggests to me I'd be asleep like them -- not a coward, but just oblivious of the danger, made so sleepy by my ideological agreement that I wouldn't complain about "mere process issues." And that is both frightening and deeply depressing.
 
Last edited:
Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

Handyman said:
I think he is dangerous. I am a pessimist and cynic by nature. When he got the nomination I said things would go bad because he would do everything he has done. I was dressed down by everyone I know because of how dark I said things would get under him. People I know still cant believe it because I was lowering expectations so we could look back and say "well at least he didnt do THAT" but he actually went farther than I thought he would until his second term.

And I dont think he is dangerous because he is rich, or a Republican, or a Narcissist...I think he is dangerous because history tells us what is coming next. I know you want to believe this is stuff that can be fixed easily, or that it isnt so horrible it cant be reversed (my dad sounds a LOT like you...of course he also believes the GOP will stop him if he goes much farther...he smokes a lot of weed ;) ) but history is not on your side here. As someone who is a student of history, had a license to teach it and continues to study it the truth is November is the rubicon. If he wins again there is no going back. No white knights will save us. If he and his party are this bad when their butts are on the line what will they do when they literally cannot be stopped?

Now this is where an older person than I will say "they wont touch entitlements and they wont touch Roe v. Wade" because over the decades it has always been all bluster. Even Dubya knew enough about the game to push the line as far as possible but never go too far that you put the party at risk. If Trump wins again and the Senate stays with him he will be untouchable and so will they. They will stack the judicial deck so deep it will take 3 decades to fix it. (and god forbid RBG dies we might as well quit) Nothing out of the House will get passed so the people will be screwed over as well. And it will be 50/50 he decides to leave after his second term (he and his Nazis will use FDR as an example ignoring the Constitution) and even if he does he will push for one of his spawns to run and they will walk away with it cause the game will be rigged.

So call me hyperbolic, call me Chicken Little if it makes you feel better...but Republics fall for a reason and all it takes is reading a little bit to see the point of no return after the fact. We are lucky we see it right now, and if we dont stop it we have no one to blame for it but ourselves.
Click to expand...

Let me ask you this. Let's say he wins a second term. What do you really think he's going to do?

When I read your post, I can only parse out about 4 specifics, but I assume there more than these.

You express concern about entitlements. Fair enough. His current budget purports to take a big bite out of entitlements. But won't he need Congress to accomplish that? I don't see the House going for it, and probably not even the Senate. Isn't the entitlements issue going to be a typical Trump move where claims he is going to do something (or even claims he did it), but it never actually happens?

Roe v. Wade. The only possible effect on Roe v. Wade that Trump could have comes through SC appointments, obviously. I've stated this before, and I continue to believe it. I don't believe Roe v. Wade will be overturned. Will the decision continue to be nibbled at here and there, as it has for the past 50 years? Sure, but whatever is going to happen regarding Roe v. Wade has already been cast in stone.

You worry about court packing. Well, honestly, whenever there has been a Senate of the same party as the POTUS, they take advantage of the situation to put as many "like minded" judges on the bench as possible. I believe that will always be the case. Is that ideal? No, not at all. But fortunately there is a bit of a lag effect too, since it takes awhile for litigation to work it's way up, and usually by the time that happens the POTUS is already gone.

That gets us to the worry du jour -- He just won't leave. I don't know what to tell you. I don't believe that will happen. I don't think the public would stand for it. If you think about it, electing a POTUS is a years long process. As we approach 2024 (assuming he's still around) there will be D's and R's running in the primaries, running ads, etc... You think he's going to run again? Even if he tried, you'd have litigation over whether his name could appear on the ballot in states that would challenge his right under the constitution, and I can't believe Courts would let him go forward, so then you'd have a Republican convention where someone else would get nominated and Trump doesn't even show up on the ballot in November. Even if he wanted to stay for another term, I don't see the mechanics of it.

None of those cause me to see the coming of Nazi Germany.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

geezer said:
The conclusion of which is that Klobuchar is peak MSP alpha girl (and not to be trusted). The iron range people are a lot different; more genuine. The farmers west of St. Cloud, well... who can say? I would go armed.
Click to expand...

Me. No need to go armed. The lakes are beautiful and stocked with plenty of fish though, if that's your thing. I preferred tubing myself.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

SJHovey said:
That gets us to the worry du jour -- He just won't leave. I don't know what to tell you. I don't believe that will happen. I don't think the public would stand for it.
Click to expand...

Counter-point: if Dump declared that the election had been compromised by "irregularities we are looking into," and refused to acknowledge the results, what percentage of Republican voters would go against him? I'm guessing less than 5%. What percentage of Republican Members would go against him? I'm guessing less than 1%.

We're in trouble, man. Not just because the President is a delusional criminal, or because the Republican party is craven opportunists and cowards who will do nothing to protect American laws, but because a huge number of American voters no longer give a sh-t what system of government they live under as long as they get their way. The right's base has abandoned law and democracy, likely because they never believed in it anyway. The right's elite has abandoned law and democracy, likely because they can read demographic charts and understand they can no longer function as a significant power if the US retains its democracy.
 
Last edited:
Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

I worry about him side-stepping every established governmental procedure of how things get done to do whatever he wants to do. Give Alaska back to Russia? Done. Send Treasury money straight to his bank account? Done. Make deals with foreign nations that don't do anything for America, but put millions in his pockets? Done. And so on.

Oh, that's illegal? Oh, I can't do that? Oh, that's Congress' responsibility?

See you in court.

Just like he's done with everything so far during his term. Whatever he wants, he gets. Get in his way, you're gone. And the Republicans in Congress have shown they will not step up to stop him. On any of it. So he's seen he's got carte blanche to do whatever he wants. And it scares me to try to imagine what 'whatever he wants' might turn out to be.

If you say, no he can't, we have Congress, and other institutions to prevent that from happening, to stop him from going that far. To which I say, see you in court.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

Kepler said:
Counter-point: if Dump declared that the election had been compromised by "irregularities we are looking into," and refused to acknowledge them, what percentage of Republican voters would go against him? I'm guessing less than 5%. What percentage of Republican Members would go against him? I'm guessing less than 1%.
Click to expand...

That's the thing. If he does, then Congress and the people need to be prepared to make him go. And I don't see that happening. Some will be prepared. Others will react just as they did during the impeachment; make excuses, justifications, say what he's doing isn't really wrong.

Hovey's problem is that he views Trump as he would any other president, any other politician. The only thing that stops them from governing absolutely, from taking that next step, is a regard for the office, for the institution of government, for political and social mores.

Trump has none of that. Trump is all about Trump. Trump will do what is most beneficial for Trump.

Adam Schiff told you all this. You, and the Republican members of the Senate, chose not to hear.
 
Last edited:
Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

Kepler said:
Counter-point: if Dump declared that the election had been compromised by "irregularities we are looking into," and refused to acknowledge the results, what percentage of Republican voters would go against him? I'm guessing less than 5%. What percentage of Republican Members would go against him? I'm guessing less than 1%.

We're in trouble, man. Not just because the President is a delusional criminal, or because the Republican party is craven opportunists and cowards who will do nothing to protect American laws, but because a huge number of American voters no longer give a sh-t what system of government they live under as long as they get their way. The right's base has abandoned law and democracy, likely because they never believed in it anyway. The right's elite has abandoned law and democracy, likely because they can read demographic charts and understand they can no longer function as a significant power if the US retains its democracy.
Click to expand...

Republican "members" of what?

After the election, don't the individual states certify their results and then have the electoral college members vote, and isn't there a deadline for all of that? If no one gets 270, doesn't the U.S. House elect the winner?
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 9: Can we climb this mountain? I don't know.

SJHovey said:
Republican "members" of what?

After the election, don't the individual states certify their results and then have the electoral college members vote, and isn't there a deadline for all of that? If no one gets 270, doesn't the U.S. House elect the winner?
Click to expand...

All Trump has to do is say, there are "irregularities". Then, everyone goes into their respective corners, it ends up in the Courts, and BOOM. Turtle Boy's work comes to fruition. Why you continue to believe that systems are going to hold up that haven't held up since he took office is beyond me.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top