Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market
Biden or Bloomberg, color-coded.
Biden or Bloomberg, color-coded.
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Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market
- Thread starter MissThundercat
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Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market
<img src="https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0084/7357/5487/t/4/assets/pf-39ad38ea-c89c-4611-bbf2-a1ab9830eb50--Strawman.png?1130" height=300>
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unofan
Well-known member
I know you don't believe there are idiots out there on the far left, but my Facebook feed says otherwise.
In the last week, a guy I went to high school went called Obama Reagan, Warren a fake progressive, and Buttegig a racist.
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trixR4kids
Well-known member
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market
Please source your claims...
"well this one person on the internet"
Please source your claims...
"well this one person on the internet"
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market
I believe there are idiots on the Far Left. I do not believe they are representative.
My objection to your specific post (which surprised me because you are a logical chap) is that nowhere in the linked piece does the author make the charge you are rebutting. He's saying:
1. It doesn't hurt to reach.
2. It does hurt not to reach.
Democrats need to have that drilled into their heads.
I believe there are idiots on the Far Left. I do not believe they are representative.
My objection to your specific post (which surprised me because you are a logical chap) is that nowhere in the linked piece does the author make the charge you are rebutting. He's saying:
1. It doesn't hurt to reach.
2. It does hurt not to reach.
Democrats need to have that drilled into their heads.
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Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market
uno's statement is the natural follow up though. In fact, its the very thing you've been preaching since you were deprogrammed a few months ago!
uno's statement is the natural follow up though. In fact, its the very thing you've been preaching since you were deprogrammed a few months ago!
FadeToBlack&Gold
Microlot Marxist
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market
Bernie might beat Dump if the youth vote gets off its arse (ironic given he's older than dirt). I am concerned that Liz isn't capable of inspiring enough college kids to put down the bong for an hour and vote.
Looks to me like the numbers are narrowing.
Bernie might beat Dump if the youth vote gets off its arse (ironic given he's older than dirt). I am concerned that Liz isn't capable of inspiring enough college kids to put down the bong for an hour and vote.
Looks to me like the numbers are narrowing.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market
I agree with the sentiment in general but if it's the very first thing that comes to your mind after reading that piece then it kinda proves its thesis: the Left has been trained to self-censor, to pro-actively surrender. The Right has been taught to push and push and push. The result is the headlong rush to fascism of the last 40 years. To arrest that and restore balance we had better stop ducking and mumbling and start having courage and bravado.
The People do not give a sh-t about policy, they care about affect. The GOP affect is leadership and confidence and people are drawn to that despite Republican rancidness and their century-long record of economic disaster. The People like the big, tough, dumb sh-t with the big hair. They think he's a rebellious anti-hero even though in reality he's the tool of the establishment that is f-cking them.
The Dem affect is professorial consideration and faltering caution. The People are repelled by that. Not everybody wants to sit through a dissertation defense. If you want to know what most people like, watch commercials. The flashy, loud, pandering, and superficial in a proven winner. What matters is affect.
The Great Irony is the 1% target their campaigns to the bottom half of the electorate while we target ours to the top 5% of the educated. A new approach is needed. Be brave and confident. Stop worrying about everything: how middle class people will hear "socialism," how one-legged Tennessee cis lesbians of color will feel insufficiently respected.
State the goal: widely shared prosperity and equal opportunity.
State how to get there: full stop end corporate, Plute, and military welfare, make enormous long-term investments in health and education for the majority of Americans, restore strongly progressive taxation, punish white color crime, reverse the privatization of government as a debunked, corrupt scam.
Restore balance. Repair the social ties between Americans and end the "war of all against all" the Plutes use to divide and conquer. End the trumped-up war between rurals and urbans. Make "American" more important than gender or skin color or region. Stop demonizing women (or men) and browns (or whites) and the coasts (or the middle).
Defend American values of equality and opportunity. Be proud of them, be positive about them. Own them. We are Real America. Those other as-sholes are just a bunch of lying multi-national carpetbaggers and their paid stooges.
uno's statement is the natural follow up though. In fact, its the very thing you've been preaching since you were deprogrammed a few months ago!
I agree with the sentiment in general but if it's the very first thing that comes to your mind after reading that piece then it kinda proves its thesis: the Left has been trained to self-censor, to pro-actively surrender. The Right has been taught to push and push and push. The result is the headlong rush to fascism of the last 40 years. To arrest that and restore balance we had better stop ducking and mumbling and start having courage and bravado.
The People do not give a sh-t about policy, they care about affect. The GOP affect is leadership and confidence and people are drawn to that despite Republican rancidness and their century-long record of economic disaster. The People like the big, tough, dumb sh-t with the big hair. They think he's a rebellious anti-hero even though in reality he's the tool of the establishment that is f-cking them.
The Dem affect is professorial consideration and faltering caution. The People are repelled by that. Not everybody wants to sit through a dissertation defense. If you want to know what most people like, watch commercials. The flashy, loud, pandering, and superficial in a proven winner. What matters is affect.
The Great Irony is the 1% target their campaigns to the bottom half of the electorate while we target ours to the top 5% of the educated. A new approach is needed. Be brave and confident. Stop worrying about everything: how middle class people will hear "socialism," how one-legged Tennessee cis lesbians of color will feel insufficiently respected.
State the goal: widely shared prosperity and equal opportunity.
State how to get there: full stop end corporate, Plute, and military welfare, make enormous long-term investments in health and education for the majority of Americans, restore strongly progressive taxation, punish white color crime, reverse the privatization of government as a debunked, corrupt scam.
Restore balance. Repair the social ties between Americans and end the "war of all against all" the Plutes use to divide and conquer. End the trumped-up war between rurals and urbans. Make "American" more important than gender or skin color or region. Stop demonizing women (or men) and browns (or whites) and the coasts (or the middle).
Defend American values of equality and opportunity. Be proud of them, be positive about them. Own them. We are Real America. Those other as-sholes are just a bunch of lying multi-national carpetbaggers and their paid stooges.
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Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market
I think you're not considering something important, which is there IS an electoral price to overreach. "We'll be greeted as liberators" for one tragic example. If you don't craft a winning message, not only do you get nothing, you most likely have things that you took for granted taken away. THAT is the lesson of the Chump administration. Dems ran on 60's style liberalism complete with tax hikes for everyone and an expansion of the social programs all the way through the 1988 election. Their reward for that? 3 absolute blow out losses (72, 84, 88) where they lost between 40 and 49 (!) states.
I know socialism tingles your loins. There's nothing wrong with that. Go be a socialist if that's what you believe. However, pragmatists-moderates-corporate sellouts-etc all value one thing more than socialists do. That's winning. Show me Bernie style candidates winning swing districts and I'm on board as I don't have a problem with the old codger. Old style liberals by your own calculations don't have a strong record winning contested elections. I'd like to see a bit better of a track record first.
I think you're not considering something important, which is there IS an electoral price to overreach. "We'll be greeted as liberators" for one tragic example. If you don't craft a winning message, not only do you get nothing, you most likely have things that you took for granted taken away. THAT is the lesson of the Chump administration. Dems ran on 60's style liberalism complete with tax hikes for everyone and an expansion of the social programs all the way through the 1988 election. Their reward for that? 3 absolute blow out losses (72, 84, 88) where they lost between 40 and 49 (!) states.
I know socialism tingles your loins. There's nothing wrong with that. Go be a socialist if that's what you believe. However, pragmatists-moderates-corporate sellouts-etc all value one thing more than socialists do. That's winning. Show me Bernie style candidates winning swing districts and I'm on board as I don't have a problem with the old codger. Old style liberals by your own calculations don't have a strong record winning contested elections. I'd like to see a bit better of a track record first.
trixR4kids
Well-known member
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market
Bernie Sanders won a senate seat that had been under Republican control for over 100 years.
Also I love the implicit bias here where "blowout losses" are somehow treated as being significantly worse than close losses by centrists that delivered us Bush x2 and the current idiot.
Bernie Sanders won a senate seat that had been under Republican control for over 100 years.
Also I love the implicit bias here where "blowout losses" are somehow treated as being significantly worse than close losses by centrists that delivered us Bush x2 and the current idiot.
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Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market
So Vermont is your example of socialists winning tough races?
So Vermont is your example of socialists winning tough races?
trixR4kids
Well-known member
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market
In your mind would a seat that's been held by the opposite party for 100 years suffice as a tough race?
In your mind would a seat that's been held by the opposite party for 100 years suffice as a tough race?
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market
Bernie straight up whupped Hillary head-to-head in Michigan, Ohio, and Wisconsin in 2016; dominating the swing district of the whole United States. What did the Democrats do next? They shrieked with fright and nominated Hillary anyway, as some kind of weird apology for existing. big OOF!
Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market
They are significantly worse. Are you suggesting that losing like Mondale or Carter did is not more telling than "losing" like Gore did? At least he put up a fight...
All losses hurt badly, but if you lose 40-49 states you set things back even farther. The Centrists you and your #NoMiddleGround crowd spit on every twelve seconds may be sellouts and full on cronies but at least they come out and vote. That is Rover's point. Until the Far Left proves they will be a force on Election Day how can they be trusted? Right now if I was a Dem strategist I wouldnt count on them if anyone but Bernie wins the nom.
This is a lynchpin moment in history for Progressive Wing. They can do for the Dems what the Tea Party or Freedumb Caucus did for the Right. (move the agenda and get a beach head that allows them to shape platform for a generation) The first step was getting more representation in Washington (which Reps like Ilhan and AOC did and are helping do) and the second step is showing you are force at the ballot box on a more national scale. (Senators and President) If they turn the tide this election (no matter the candidate) and the Dems take back the WH the Progressives will have clout coming out their ying yangs. Once you have that, the world is your oyster. AOC has already proven she knows how to play the game so if they just give her enough chips they will have more power than they will know what to do with. That is what the Country needs, and it is definitely what the Democratic Party needs.
They are significantly worse. Are you suggesting that losing like Mondale or Carter did is not more telling than "losing" like Gore did? At least he put up a fight...
All losses hurt badly, but if you lose 40-49 states you set things back even farther. The Centrists you and your #NoMiddleGround crowd spit on every twelve seconds may be sellouts and full on cronies but at least they come out and vote. That is Rover's point. Until the Far Left proves they will be a force on Election Day how can they be trusted? Right now if I was a Dem strategist I wouldnt count on them if anyone but Bernie wins the nom.
This is a lynchpin moment in history for Progressive Wing. They can do for the Dems what the Tea Party or Freedumb Caucus did for the Right. (move the agenda and get a beach head that allows them to shape platform for a generation) The first step was getting more representation in Washington (which Reps like Ilhan and AOC did and are helping do) and the second step is showing you are force at the ballot box on a more national scale. (Senators and President) If they turn the tide this election (no matter the candidate) and the Dems take back the WH the Progressives will have clout coming out their ying yangs. Once you have that, the world is your oyster. AOC has already proven she knows how to play the game so if they just give her enough chips they will have more power than they will know what to do with. That is what the Country needs, and it is definitely what the Democratic Party needs.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market
In 2016 Dem white males were still apologizing for existing.
We learned the rest of the world doesn't give a sh-t about Our Deeply Held Feelings of Guilty and Concern.
I'm guessing that won't happen this time. After all, if the choice is Bernie/Biden then the Identity Types don't have a leg to stand on -- it's all breast no leg.
In 2016 Dem white males were still apologizing for existing.
We learned the rest of the world doesn't give a sh-t about Our Deeply Held Feelings of Guilty and Concern.
I'm guessing that won't happen this time. After all, if the choice is Bernie/Biden then the Identity Types don't have a leg to stand on -- it's all breast no leg.
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market
No, if the politics of the state had changed over that time. By that logic, conservatives will be winning a tough race if they flip Joe Manchin's seat once he retires, since he succeeded Robert Byrd who held that seat for ages. That makes no sense, even by your standards...
No, if the politics of the state had changed over that time. By that logic, conservatives will be winning a tough race if they flip Joe Manchin's seat once he retires, since he succeeded Robert Byrd who held that seat for ages. That makes no sense, even by your standards...
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market
I especially liked Sanders 43-56 victory in the Ohio primary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Ohio_Democratic_primary
I especially liked Sanders 43-56 victory in the Ohio primary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Ohio_Democratic_primary
trixR4kids
Well-known member
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market
Uh no, they compromised the principles of the party that supposedly represents the working class and still lost achieving the exact same outcome against embarrassingly stupid candidates.
The "far left" backed Obama until it became clear that he actually didn't want to do any of the progressive things that he campaigned on. The ones that are openly hostile toward the left probably won't get their vote, but no **** lol.
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Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market
We're arguing about losses that happened 40 years ago. That's the equivalent of people saying "Reagan can't win, look what happened to Hoover."
Things change. Just like people became wary of liberalism in the late '70s after a long, long run they have become sick and tired of devil take the hindmost conservatism. Systems that are in place long enough wear out their welcome and I can't think of anything less welcome than the Republican Party.
We are the ones betraying us, not the voters. Bernie would lose the pundits and lose the Beltway experts and lose the media and lose the DNC money people and lose the Wise Old Heads and win the election.
We're arguing about losses that happened 40 years ago. That's the equivalent of people saying "Reagan can't win, look what happened to Hoover."
Things change. Just like people became wary of liberalism in the late '70s after a long, long run they have become sick and tired of devil take the hindmost conservatism. Systems that are in place long enough wear out their welcome and I can't think of anything less welcome than the Republican Party.
We are the ones betraying us, not the voters. Bernie would lose the pundits and lose the Beltway experts and lose the media and lose the DNC money people and lose the Wise Old Heads and win the election.
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trixR4kids
Well-known member
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market
They will, his challenger got more votes that the Republican despite having like 6 figures to spend on her campaign and the DCCC aggressively backing Manchin and bringing candidates from Washington to speak on his behalf.No, if the politics of the state had changed over that time. By that logic, conservatives will be winning a tough race if they flip Joe Manchin's seat once he retires, since he succeeded Robert Byrd who held that seat for ages. That makes no sense, even by your standards...
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